Beijing Slams Britain for Meeting with Dalai Lama

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Beijing Slams Britain for Meeting with Dalai Lama

Written by Robert Vance on May 25, 2008 – 11:56 pm

It was back to ‘business as usual’ for the Chinese government on Saturday when it condemned Britain’s Prime Minister Gordon Brown and members of the British Parliament for meeting with the Dalai Lama. A spokesman for the Chinese Foreign Ministry in Beijing was quoted as saying that the meeting in Britain “interferes in China’s internal affairs and hurts the Chinese people’s feelings as well.” Britain is just one country in a list of countries that China has criticized for meeting with the Dalai Lama.

The strong words that Beijing had for Britain over the weekend have often been uttered in one form or another by the Chinese government in the past to express its anger at the warm welcome that the exiled spiritual leader receives around the world. But such rhetoric from Beijing is beginning to ‘ring hollow’ in the ears of many. After all, the Dalai Lama has on numerous occasions attempted to reach common ground internally with Beijing by holding direct talks with the government. The most recent talks, which took place in Beijing earlier in the month, seemed to have had little effect on the ongoing conflict. In an article entitled Will the Meeting with the Dalai’s Rep in Beijing be Meaningless? I explained how the Chinese government had already set the terms of the meeting before the Dalai Lama’s envoys even arrived in Beijing. Considering that the meetings produced no productive results, it is clear that the Chinese government was simply using the talks to temporarily lessen the pressure that was being exerted on them from the international community.

The Chinese government’s claim on Saturday that the Dalai Lama’s meetings with foreign leaders “hurts the Chinese people’s feelings” is yet another example of how Beijing constantly tries to use its own people as a political ’shield’ to protect itself against world opinion. Most Chinese people really do not care about what the Dalai Lama is saying or doing overseas. The same can be said for how Chinese people view what is taking place in Tibet. Even though people will argue until ‘they are blue in the face’ that Tibet is and always has been apart of China, there is still a great disconnect between Tibet and the rest of the country. My friends and students really do not follow what very closely what is taking place there nor do they constantly worry that Tibet is someday going to ‘free itself’ from China. Thus, if some people’s feelings are hurt in China over the Dalai Lama’s meetings in Britain last week, then it is only because they heard from the CCP that their feelings should be hurt. I have not seen any tears nor have I heard any crying. The actions of the Dalai Lama are mostly irrelevant in the mind of the average Chinese person.

Unfortunately, while the Dalai Lama continues to use peaceful means in his attempt to solve the ongoing crisis between China and its wayward province, he is apparently becoming discouraged by the lack of progress and the increasing discontent in Tibet. In a recent interview with the Financial Times , “he warned that in recent times, many Tibetans have been showing ‘clear signs of frustration’ with the lack of progress he has been making with the Chinese.” He also indicated in the interview that he feared that his followers were becoming increasingly unhappy with his peaceful approach to the problem. Beijing then, it would seem, is ’shooting itself’ in the foot by criticizing the Dalai Lama’s efforts to bring about a peaceful solution with the help of foreign leaders and by inviting his envoys to Beijing for talks that are nothing more than meaningless shows. The Dalai Lama will probably always advocate peaceful diplomacy but will his followers abandon these peaceful methods and take matters into their own hands? Only time will tell. Beijing has much to worry about.

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yugung on May 26th, 2008 at 7:42 pm

To fully understanding the Tibet issue one need understand the role of the CIA and Britain in funding the Tibet separatist movement since the last century.
It is natural to be angry when countries like USA and UK who openly recognized Tibet as a part of China but secretly back the Tibet separatists with money and propaganda support.
I don’t know who your Chinese friends/students were, but most Chinese are indeed very angry with the hypocracy of USA and UK.
You are decieving yourself to think that the anger expressed by the Government as purely propaganda ploy.

This link provides readers a different angle to look at Tibet.
Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth
http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html

yugung on May 26th, 2008 at 8:13 pm

RV: Unfortunately, while the Dalai Lama continues to use peaceful means in his attempt to solve the ongoing crisis between China and its wayward province, he is apparently becoming discouraged by the lack of progress and the increasing discontent in Tibet.

Yugung:
The Dalai Lama is a smart politician. Western media have given him a “holy man of peace” image. Those who know his background know that he can be brutal when his authority is threatened.

There are many sects in Tibetan buddhism.
Inorder to bring all these sects under the domination of Dalai Lama’s Geluk sect, the Tibetan Gov in Exile headed by the Dalai Lama, in 1977, ploted the murder the leader of the rival Karma Kagyu sects (headed by the Kamapa).

This was what Asiaweek (belongs to the Dow Jones Publisher) reported in Oct. 2000:

Long-uneasy relations between the Geluk and Karma Kagyu sects were further
strained by the Dalai Lama’s intervention in the recognition of the Karmapa Lama. It revived bitter memories of the 1960s, when the Dalai’s brother Gyalo Thondup tried to bring all Tibetan sects under Geluk control by force if necessary. When 14 exile settlements united to fight his plan, unrest erupted within the community. In March 1977, settlements leader Gungthang Tsultrim was shot several times at point-blank range. The murderer said he received 300,000 rupees from the Tibetan government-in-exile. He claimed it offered to pay him even more to kill the 16th Karmapa Lama (the current Karmapa is the 17th Karmapa ; the head of the Tibet Gov in exile is the Dalai Lama).

Robert Vance on May 27th, 2008 at 1:27 am

Yugung said:

Robert says:

Did you actually read the entire page? If you had, I don’t think you would have linked to it for this discussion. This is exactly what Michael Parenti writes at the very end:

“If China is the great success story of speedy free market development, and is to be the model and inspiration for Tibet’s future, then old feudal Tibet indeed may start looking a lot better than it actually was.”

from http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html

In other words, “old Feudal Tibet” may be better than what is happening now in Tibet.

And what is your point with these stories about religious turbulence in Tibet? This is the story of all religions, my friends. None of the stories about Tibet feudalism or whatever murders the Dalai Lama has planned gives the government the right to try to drown out the culture.

yugung on May 27th, 2008 at 3:43 am

Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth
http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html
My purpose of posting the link is not asking anybody to blindly accept everything the author wrote but to see Tibet from a different angle.
While the author describe the past reasonably well, his prediction of the future is just guess work.

Nobody is trying to drown out Tibetan culture.
The Dalai Lama is not a man of peace as he is usually portray in the west.
He is just another politician.
He is capable of terrorism, assassination as well as lying.

Sara on August 12th, 2008 at 9:22 am

You are talking RUBBISH again!!

Where’s your PROOF that the Dalai Lama is capable of terrorism, assasinations and lying?

Show me some PROOF instead of just always writing what YOU think.

You’ve also not answered my question on another blog - when were you in Tibet, why did you go and what did you learn from your experience?

You are so against the Dalai lama and the Tibetans, that I’m really interested to know why you went to Tibet. Tell me.

yugung on August 12th, 2008 at 10:41 am

An example of Dalai Lama’s act of terrorism
There are many sects in Tibetan buddhism.
Inorder to bring all these sects under the domination of Dalai Lama’s Geluk sect, the Tibetan Gov in Exile headed by the Dalai Lama, in 1977, ploted the murder the leader of the Karma Kagyu sects.

yugung on August 12th, 2008 at 10:43 am

sara:
You are so against the Dalai lama and the Tibetans, that I’m really interested to know why you went to Tibet. Tell me.

yugung:
I ve told u before, I will not answer to any personal question.

Sara on August 12th, 2008 at 6:29 pm

Yugung,

What is so personal about asking why you went to Tibet? This ‘blog’ is to discuss things like this, i.e. a person’s experience about Tibet, and the Tibetans, etc.

I think the reason you don’t want to answer, is because you have actually never been to Tibet - you just said it because it gives you an excuse to slander the Dalai Lama.

You’re a FAKE.

Sara on August 12th, 2008 at 6:34 pm

Ok Yugung,

If you refuse to answer why you went to Tibet (supposedly) perhaps you wouldn’t mind answering these questions:

(1) Why do you think the Tibetan people want independence again?

(2) Why do you think many Tibetans are risking their lives leaving Tibet and going to India?

(3) You said most Tibetans leaving Tibet are going to India to study English. Why aren’t they going to China to study English instead?

(4) Please provide up to date proof / evidence of mixed marriages between Tibetan Buddhists and Chinese Communists.

(5) If there is no religious freedom in China (Fact) where is your proof that religious freedom exists today in Tibet?

(6) Why does the CCP impose restrictions on the internet? and why ban some websites? Why can’t chinese citizens read what they want?

(7) Why don’t the Chinese military in Tibet want foreigners talking freely to Tibetans in Lhasa?

(8) Why do the CCP and chinese citizens say that the Dalai Lama is a splittist, when he is not chinese?

(9) You said that chinese people think the Tibetans smell - why? If you knew anything at all about Tibetan culture, you would know why.

yugung on August 13th, 2008 at 10:17 am

Sara asked some angry questions.

The Dalai Lama never asked for independence. From my experience in the internet , I would say most of those who claimed to speak for Tibetans are either Americans or British. This is also reflected in the so call NGOs that campaign for Tibet independence, most of them are funded by the British or American and most of their directors are British or Americans. The Tibet separatist movement is a proxy of Anglo-USA alliance.

I ve answered that. read my old post agian.

Indians speak good English, don’t they?
The Dalai Lama camp have lots of money to lure them.
For example there are more Fullbright Scholarships for Tibetans than qualified allpicants.

Improve your manner.
I think what u need is a good spanking.

Tibet has more monks per 1000 population that Thailand.
The monk get state subsidies.
The trouble is there are those who work for foreign powers while hiding behind the façade of religion.

Why not? It is people like the Dalai Lama, the Falun Gong and the Xinjiang terrorists that make it necessary to control the internet. Having said that, the trend is for a more open China.

I ve not notice that. U made up stories.

Dalai Lama is Chinese. In 1954 he applied to join the CCP.
He was the deputy chairman of the China’s parlaiment until 1959 when he defected to the CIA

Liar!
I said that the worse negative remark I have ever heard about Tibetans, is that they smell because they don’t bath frequently. I NEVER said i heard the remark frequently and I disagree with that remark.

I never said Hans are perfect same with all races in the world.

yugung on August 13th, 2008 at 11:01 am

Do Tibetans look distinct from Hans.
Anthropologist Zhang zhenbiao had done a research on the subject comparing various ethnic groups of China.
Here I will only summarize the part comparing Tibetans and Hans (from Shandong).

% population with epicanthal fold (mongoloid fold)
Tibetans:86%
Hans:89%

% population with Mongolian slant eye (outer angle higher than inner angle)
Tibetans:69%
Hans:65%

% population with straight bridge of nose (VS concave or convex):
Tibetans:80%
Hans:76%

% population with medium thickness of lips (Vs thick or thin)
Tibetans:69%
Hans:67%

% population with round earlobe
Tibetans:79%
Hans:53%

My conclusion is that Tibetans and Hans actually look alike.
If u really have to make a bet, look at the earlobe.

yugung on August 13th, 2008 at 11:58 am

Intermarriage between Tibetans and Hans take place throughout history.
Since 1792 the central Government stationed Royal Commissioners in Tibet.
Many of their entourage settled down in the Shanan region of Tibet and were married to the locals. Shannan is south east of Lhasa.
Their descendants speak Tibetans and follow Tibetan Buddhism
Interestingly, many of them still worship Guangong (关公), a Han general who lived around ?50BC (later Han period).
This is a photo of a Guangong temple built 2 centuries ago in Lhasa.

http://www.xzly800.com/Photo/List_72.htm

Notice the distinct architecture.

Sara on August 13th, 2008 at 10:30 pm

Re: your comment: “Intermarriage between Tibetans and Hans take place throughout history. Their descendants speak Tibetans and follow Tibetan Buddhism”.

My answer: I’m not talking about mixed-race marriages of decades gone by - I’m talking about your earlier comment in which you stated that mixed-race marriages are taking place even TODAY in Tibet.

I replied, by asking you how many Tibetan Buddhists are married to Chinese communists? The chinese communists would never follow Tibetan Buddhism, or see the Dalai Lama as their spiritual leader, so again I’m asking you - how many mixed marriages are there today in Tibet?

As for your other comments, I shall answer them later, when I have more time.

Chen on August 14th, 2008 at 2:38 am

2 Sara:
Do you really want to ask ” how many mixed marriages are there today in Tibet”(Tibetan Buddhism and CCP member I assume)? no better questions? How about this : How many black and white mixed marriages are there in USA/Britain/…? If you want your answers, Give a call to national bureau of statistics of China. Do you get what I mean? There is nothing to dig, only people like you ask such stupid question.

yugung on August 14th, 2008 at 8:14 am

Sara:
I replied, by asking you how many Tibetan Buddhists are married to Chinese communists? The chinese communists would never follow Tibetan Buddhism, or see the Dalai Lama as their spiritual leader, so again I’m asking you - how many mixed marriages are there today in Tibet?

Yugung:
Numerous bachelor communist cadres were sent to Tibet since 1949 and numerous of them married locals. This is a well know fact.
Do they worship the Dalai Lama?
I hope not.
As long as these couple are happy with the arrangement, who cares?

Robert Vance on August 14th, 2008 at 9:15 am

@Chen,

Congratulations, my friend. Great way to make your first post, calling someone’s question (and basically calling them) stupid.

Have you tried calling a Chinese government office lately? My guess would be no. Trying to get a live government person who will actually answer questions in this country is like trying to call the White House in the US and speak to President Bush. Good Luck with that one….

And why should we trust the Chinese government even if we could get an answer from them? Many experts say that Tibetans are a minority in their own homeland…the Chinese government flatly denies that. All government lie….did you know that? The U.S., China, every government…so calling the National Bureau of Statistics would be a MONUMENTAL waste of time and energy…

Sara on August 14th, 2008 at 6:09 pm

You said that numerous bachelor communist cadres were sent to Tibet, as early as 1949 - do you mean the PLA troops? I’m asking because you used the word ’sent’.

So what are you saying exactly? That after the PLA troops killed thousands of Tibetans (including monks) and tortured them in all sorts of ways, i.e. by forcing them to attend self-criticism meetings, and imprisoning those who refused to denounce the Dalai Lama and to ‘change their bad habits’ that some bachelor PLA men decided to stay in Tibet because they preferred it to China?

And then what? They learnt Tibetan culture and language and went on to marry Tibetan women? Women who didn’t care about the fact these PLA men had turned Tibet into a killing field?

And then you have the CCP - are you seriously telling me that the CCP would simply allow these ‘bachelor communist cadres’ to stay in Tibet - no questions asked?

Get real Yugung. You know very well that these men would be seen as “splittists” and sent back to China.

Where’s your PROOF? Where’s the EVIDENCE? Where’s the STATISTICS?

I don’t have time to answer your other questions just now, but I most certainly will, later on.

As for the comment posted by Chen, oh dear….. we have another Yugung….. you can’t answer a straight-forward question either, can you? If you want to talk about ‘mixed race marriages’ as a whole, that’s fine, but this ‘blog’ is about China and Tibet - let’s try and keep it that way.

Jason Ding on August 14th, 2008 at 8:24 pm

Sara: “tortured them in all sorts of ways, i.e. by forcing them to attend self-criticism meetings, and imprisoning those who refused to denounce the Dalai Lama and to ‘change their bad habits’ ”

@Sara,

Let me ask you: do you have the evidence as you mentioned above? Don’t tell me it’s only told by Dalai or the refugee or your media. Any photos and any records?

Above Yugung provided the evidence that those tibetan CIA agents who were reported by their brothers and captured by government, were released after 1 month, no torture happened to them. That’s the US CIA report. Please think about it.

I provided evidence to you about the mao’s portrait. You said the government forced them to hang it up. If Yugung provides the evidence, you would say the tibetan who married Han was brainwashed. I think any answer from us you will use “forced” or “brainwashed” to deny it. You just don’t want to face the fact. Only want to act as ostrich to bury your head under sand.

Please find and accept the truth although for you it’s the painful for you to realize it. You have been cheated for lots of years.

Sara on August 14th, 2008 at 9:16 pm

You wrote:

My answer:

The Dalai Lama knows very well that China will never give Tibet its independence back, hence the reason why, instead, he wants autonomy for Tibet - autonomy is better than nothing! Also, you should give the Tibetans more credit. They have a voice and all that the rest of the world is trying to do (apart from the chinese) is to help them, by highlighting their plight. It is the Tibetans themselves who want autonomy - remember that!

I also asked you why are Tibetans leaving Tibet and going to India to study English. Why aren’t they going to China to study English instead?

That doesn’t really explain why Tibetans would risk their lives trekking on foot through the Himalayas to India. Are there no scholarships for Tibetans to study English in China? If not, why not?

I also asked you to provide up to date proof / evidence of mixed marriages between Tibetan Buddhists and Chinese Communists.

Your answer was: Improve your manner. I think what u need is a good spanking.

Wow!!! such hostility….. I think you missed your vocation in life - you would have made an excellent Red Guard. Crazy Mao would have been proud of you. Oh… hang on…. you’re educated (in the academic sense at least) so actually you would have labelled as a ’stinking number 9′ and been sent to the countryside to work and live with the peasants.

I also asked you if there is no religious freedom in China (Fact) where is your proof that religious freedom exists today in Tibet?

You answered:

My answer: You didn’t really answer my question. Does religious freedom (for ALL Tibetans) exist today in Tibet? And what’s this about ‘hiding behind the facade of religion’? I don’t get it…. explain yourself more clearly.

I also asked you why does the CCP impose restrictions on the internet? and why ban some websites? Why can’t chinese citizens read what they want?

You answered: Why not? It is people like the Dalai Lama, the Falun Gong and the Xinjiang terrorists that make it necessary to control the internet. Having said that, the trend is for a more open China.

My answer to this is: What the heck are you going on about? Do you mean to say that if it wasn’t for the Dalai Lama, Falun Gong practitioners and Xinjiang terrorists that the CCP would not control access to internet sites? That websites would not be banned? hahahaha….. you really expect me to believe this? hahahhahaaa

I also asked you why don’t the Chinese military in Tibet want foreigners talking freely to Tibetans in Lhasa?

You answered: I’ve not notice that. U made up stories.

My answer: It’s a FACT Yugung. There’s plenty of evidence on many websites - and actually I think you know this already. You are just so against the rest of the world, that you refuse to accept it.

I also asked you why do the CCP and chinese citizens say that the Dalai Lama is a splittist, when he is not chinese?

You answered: The Dalai Lama is Chinese. In 1954 he applied to join the CCP.
He was the deputy chairman of the China’s parlaiment until 1959 when he defected to the CIA.

My answer: The Dalai Lama is NOT Chinese. If you really believe this, then you would have to say that all Tibetans are chinese also. China has, in the past, been occupied by countries such as Japan and Mongolia - does that mean that during those times of occupation, chinese citizens became Japanese or Mongolian? Of course it doesn’t - and it’s the same in Tibet. Tibetans will always be Tibetans, no matter who is governing (controlling) them. The Dalai Lama is no more a ’splittist’ than every other Tibetan who has left Tibet.

As for your comment: In 1954 he applied to join the CCP. He was the deputy chairman of the China’s parlaiment until 1959 when he defected to the CIA…..

I have this to say to you yugung: (Extract from the book by His Holiness, the Dalai Lama - my land and my people) after the Dalai Lama had gone to China to meet Mao and he was journeying back to Lhasa:

Quote: “As I prepared for my journey back to Lhasa, I still had the hopes of saving my people from the worst consequences of Chinese domination. I thought my visit to China had helped in two ways. It had certainly shown me exactly what we were up against and, which was more important, it seemed to have persuaded the Chinese not to go ahead with the original plan, which Mao Tse-Tung had admitted, of governing us directly from Peking through a military and political committee. Instead, we seemed to have been left with some authority over our own internal affairs, and we seemed to have a firm promise of autonomy”.

“By then, I had learned the details of the ‘Preparatory Committee for the Tibet Autonomous Region’ which Mao Tse-Tung had proposed as an alternative. It was to have fifty-one members, of whom all except five would be Tibetans. I was to be Chairman, and the Panchen Lama and a Chinese official were to be vice-chairmen”.

To give membership to these separate newly invented regions was an infringement in itself of the Chinese agreement NOT to alter the political system in Tibet or the status of the Dalai Lama. And the choice of members already had the seeds in it of failure. BUT PEOPLE IN DESPERATE SITUATIONS ARE ALWAYS READY TO CLING TO THE SLIGHTEST HOPE and I hoped - in spite of my gloomy experience of Chinese political committees - that a committee with 46 Tibetan members and only five Chinese could be made to work”.

INAUGURATION - APRIL 1956

“I attended it with the feeling that here, among these 51 members, was the last hope for the peaceful evolution of our country. On paper, it had none of the absolutely unacceptable aspects of communism. And, with such a high proportion of Tibetan members in the Committee, it looked as though it could evolve into a more efficient form of government not too unlike our own. IT WAS NOT LONG BEFORE THESE HOPES WERE DEAD. All the worst I had seen in Chinese political meetings were repeated. Twenty of the members, although they were Tibetans, were representing the Chamdo Liberation Committee and the committee set up in the Panchen Lama’s western district. THESE WERE BOTH PURELY CHINESE CREATIONS. With this solid block of controlled votes, the committee was powerless - a mere facade of Tibetan representation behind which all the effective power was exercised by the Chinese”.

Yugung, no doubt you’ll have something to the above. I await your comments.

Chen on August 15th, 2008 at 1:52 am

@Robert Vance
I’m sorry for making my debut this way. If I offend anyone by writing last post, here is my sincere apology. I just want to say that if Sara want to expose same facts to support her argument, by asking that question is really not the most effective way. Come on people, even Dalai Lama once applied to join the CCP, CCP is no Nazi and not as stubborn as you think. As to the government-official-hard-to-get problem, it’s true, but it’s not unique to China. And Robert Vance’s analogy is extremely exaggerating.
My feeling of Sara’s argument: It’s pale and your cite has no credibility. What you said is nothing new to most Chinese, yet we still believe in our gov on this matter, because we do have freedom to explore facts and without punishment. Your posts can only provoke negative feeling on Chinese gov of people who has no idea what’s the fuss about. advice for people who read Sara’s posts: make sure you get infos from all kinds of sources before jumping into any conclusion. So some one like Yugung must strike a balance in this thread.
Who am I? I’m nobody, maybe not even highly educated as Sara, just among the working force in China and try to play safe. but I do know this, the Chinese gov lost its people’s faith once before and they are trying to win it back right now,. Most of the new Chinese generation consider gov as servant to protect their own interest rather than the old “Soviet way”. Believe it or not, Chinese gov is changing. Building an image it used to be 50 years ago and try to argume nowaday issue is not a responsible person would do. You need to “get real”.
Oh By the way, Yugung is right on at least one thing: Improve your manner!!

Sara on August 15th, 2008 at 3:00 am

Chen,

So you too think I need to ‘improve my manner’ just because I asked Yugung to provide up to date proof / evidence of mixed marriages between Tibetan Buddhists and Chinese Communists?

I see…. well chen, if you look at an earlier comment made by yugung, you will note that it was him/her who told me that mixed marriages exist in Tibet - and so I replied by asking her him/her for proof.

So, if you want anyone to ‘improve their manner’ you should direct it at Yugung, not at me.

As for your other comments, what’s the point in arguing with you? It doesn’t matter what the chinese government does that disturbs the rest of us, the chinese citizens will never say anything against the CCP, even when the truth is staring at them.

yugung on August 15th, 2008 at 8:30 am

Sara:
The Dalai Lama knows very well that China will never give Tibet its independence back, hence the reason why, instead, he wants autonomy for Tibet - autonomy is better than nothing! Also, you should give the Tibetans more credit. They have a voice and all that the rest of the world is trying to do (apart from the chinese) is to help them, by highlighting their plight. It is the Tibetans themselves who want autonomy - remember that!

Yugung:
Wow! So now you claim to speak for the Dalai Lama.
You read his mind or what?
As far as I know, the Dalai Lama told the European Parlaiment that he doesn’t want independence because Tibet is economically dependent on the rest of China.
My observation is that people who advocate Tibet independence have no stake in the well being of Tibet. They don’t have to live with the consequence of their action.

yugung on August 15th, 2008 at 8:38 am

Sara:
That doesn’t really explain why Tibetans would risk their lives trekking on foot through the Himalayas to India. Are there no scholarships for Tibetans to study English in China? If not, why not?

1) there there 100s of 1000s of Tibetan children studying in China, most of them on government budget. They are also learning English as well.
2) few hundred cross the border to study in India.
This is normal.
U can ask why people risk their life speeding on the road? It happens.
U can’t understand that. Its just too bad.

yugung on August 15th, 2008 at 9:43 am

Is the Dalai Lama Chinese?

“Chinese” is the collective term for all the 56 ethnic groups that make up the population of China. Just like the term “Americans” refers to all the citizens of USA.

In the Tibet separatist camp they deliberately use the term “Chinese” to refer to the Han ethnic group. That will be like calling Caucacians as Americans and the Natives and the Blacks and non-Americans.

The purpose of their propaganda campaign is not about telling the truth but to fan division. To them China break up into 56 pieces with ethnic cleaning is the optimal outcome. Where as most country in the world are multi-ethnic, they want “Tibet for ethnic Tibetans only”. Sara will die frustrated!

yugung on August 15th, 2008 at 10:57 am

sara:
You said that numerous bachelor communist cadres were sent to Tibet, as early as 1949 - do you mean the PLA troops? I’m asking because you used the word ’sent’.

yugung:
If the Hans and Tibetans do got married doesn’t it proof that all ur wild allegations are untrue.

According to 1990 government statistics there are 3652 Han -Tibetan mix households in the Tibetan Autonomous region.
This figure most likely underestimated the true extend of the mix marriages because by identifying themselves as Tibetans they get privilege treatment from the government. A lot of the second generations mix race will identify themselves as Tibetans.

Chen on August 15th, 2008 at 11:11 am

Dear Sara:
as far as I can see, yugung is quite patient with your questions. read #19 of your post, ’stinking number 9′?! Those days when the word is used are long gone Sara. I hate to say this but do you call the black negro any more? I think not, so is calling Chinese intellectual ’stinking number 9′! You’d better know what you’re talking. Plz get civilized and take it back. Robert, do you have any say on this? If Sara can get away with it, it’s so unfair!

yugung on August 15th, 2008 at 11:17 am

RV:
Many experts say that Tibetans are a minority in their own homeland…the Chinese government flatly denies that. All government lie….did you know that? The U.S., China, every government…so calling the National Bureau of Statistics would be a MONUMENTAL waste of time and energy…

Yugung:
Both US and China Government statistics are very useful provided you read them intelligently.
In the case of Tibet, many mix race will identify themselves as Tibetans because being Tibetans they get privilege treatment from the government eg require lower scores to enter university. This may slightly distort the the statistic. I don’t think it is a big deal.
Dispite of all the complain in the west about Tibetans being discriminated the truth on the ground is that people choose to be Tibetans when given an option.
The worse kind of opinion are the so call “experts”. I have a small data bank on these NED related “experts”. Their interest is to plant propaganda in news reports.
It often go like this: “according to a reliable source” or “according to a certain NGOs”.
I suspect, to some extend, western readers love to read this kind of distorted news.

yugung on August 15th, 2008 at 2:54 pm

Sara:
What the heck are you going on about? Do you mean to say that if it wasn’t for the Dalai Lama, Falun Gong practitioners and Xinjiang terrorists that the CCP would not control access to internet sites? That websites would not be banned? hahahaha….. you really expect me to believe this? hahahhahaaa

Yugung:
China also ban sites promoting drugs, sexual perversion, or encourage teen age suicide etc.
You can ve those in ur country. It’s not my business, but China will chart her own course.

yugung on August 15th, 2008 at 3:54 pm

Sara quoting the Dalai Lama’s book “freedom In Exile”:

INAUGURATION - APRIL 1956
“I attended it with the feeling that here, among these 51 members, was the last hope for the peaceful evolution of our country. On paper, it had none of the absolutely unacceptable aspects of communism. And, with such a high proportion of Tibetan members in the Committee, it looked as though it could evolve into a more efficient form of government not too unlike our own. IT WAS NOT LONG BEFORE THESE HOPES WERE DEAD. All the worst I had seen in Chinese political meetings were repeated. Twenty of the members, although they were Tibetans, were representing the Chamdo Liberation Committee and the committee set up in the Panchen Lama’s western district. THESE WERE BOTH PURELY CHINESE CREATIONS. With this solid block of controlled votes, the committee was powerless - a mere facade of Tibetan representation behind which all the effective power was exercised by the Chinese”.

Yugung:
The Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama did not like each other.
That ’s why in the 17 point agreement, point 5 and 6 were refering to Panchen Lama and his status in Tibet.

五、班禅额尔德尼的固有地位及职权，应予维持。

六、达赖喇嘛和班禅额尔德尼的固有地位及职权，系指十三世达赖喇嘛与九世班禅额尔德尼彼此和好相处时的地位及职权。

In essence, it said the status of the Panchen Lama should be restored to the Qing dynasty status. When the Qing Emperor conferred the title of Panchen Erdeni it was meant to have equal rank with the Dalai Lama.

With 20 seats of the 51 seat going to the Panchen Lama’s supporters did not make the Dalai Lam camp happy, but that’s is in the 17 point agreement.

Sara on August 17th, 2008 at 6:51 pm

YUGUNG,

You wrote:
Wow! So now you claim to speak for the Dalai Lama. You read his mind or what? As far as I know, the Dalai Lama told the European Parlaiment that he doesn’t want independence because Tibet is economically dependent on the rest of China.

My answer:
you are twisting my words - I have already stated that the Dalai Lama is not seeking independence - he is seeking autonomy, since autonomy is better than nothing - and no, I do not claim to speak for the Dalai Lama, neither can I read his mind. I don’t know why you’ve said this, since everyone in the world knows this is what the Dalai Lama is trying to obtain for Tibet.

You also wrote:
My observation is that people who advocate Tibet independence have no stake in the well being of Tibet. They don’t have to live with the consequence of their action.

My answer:
The only nation who has no stake in the well-being of Tibet is China. That is obvious! and what do you mean by saying “they don’t have to live with the consequences of their actions? Explain yourself.

You also wrote:
the Dalai Lama is chinese - and that “Chinese” is the collective term for all the 56 ethnic groups that make up the population of China. Just like the term “Americans” refers to all the citizens of USA.

My answer:
Wrong! Tibetans are not citizens of China, therefore they cannot be classed as ‘chinese’. If they WERE, why are they still referred to as Tibetans, even by the chinese? It’s the same for the Mongolians who live in Inner Mongolia. They are Mongolian, not chinese. I think both the Tibetans and Mongolians would be horrified to be classed as ‘chinese’.

You also wrote:
In the Tibet separatist camp they deliberately use the term “Chinese” to refer to the Han ethnic group.

My answer:
What Tibet separatist camp? You mean Tibet? and aren’t Han people chinese?

You also wrote:
Where as most country in the world are multi-ethnic, they want “Tibet for ethnic Tibetans only”.

My answer:
It is the Tibetans themselves who want Tibet for ethnic Tibetans only - and why not? They don’t want to be occupied and controlled by communist china. At various times in history, when China was controlled by other countries, the chinese fought to get their country back - and this is what the Tibetans are trying to do. What’s so wrong with that?

You also wrote:
According to 1990 government statistics there are 3652 Han -Tibetan mix households in the Tibetan Autonomous region.

My answer:
Which government statistics are these? The Chinese government’s statistics? Since the late 19th century, the Chinese presence in Eastern Tibet has increased, however mixed marriages between Tibetans and Chinese are still not very common. Why would a Tibetan Buddhist want to marry a chinese communist? It doesn’t make sense!

You also wrote:
China also ban sites promoting drugs, sexual perversion, or encourage teen age suicide etc.

My answer: I have no doubt the CCP does indeed ban the above sites - but that still doesn’t answer my question as to why the CCP literally ban anything to do with the ‘outside world’ and why the CCP seeks to continually SUPRESS their own citizens, by not allowing them to think for themselves and not allowing them to make their own decisions in life. It’s called ‘brain-washing’.

Yugung, I have more comments to make to you (re. the Dalai Lama) but I’m busy right now - I will write more later.
In the meantime, since it is clearly obvious you know nothing about Tibetan culture (and I still have my doubts that you have ever been to Tibet) the reason why Tibetans ’smell’ as you have apparently ‘heard from others’ is because it is traditionally believed that people should not bathe casually, but only on the most important occasions.

Tibet boasts a rich culture. Tibetan festivals such as Losar, Shoton, Linka (festival), and the Bathing Festival are deeply rooted in indigenous religion. Each person takes part in the Bathing Festival three times: at birth, at marriage, and at death.

So there you go - and the next time you ‘hear’ a chinese person saying that Tibetans ’smell’ you can educate them, by telling them why!

Sara on August 17th, 2008 at 6:58 pm

And one other thing, before I forget Yugung, you still haven’t told me which bachelor chinese cadres were SENT to Tibet - the ones who apparently settled in Tibet and went on to marry Tibetan Buddhists.

WHY were they sent / forced to go? For what purpose?

Jane on August 17th, 2008 at 9:48 pm

NO RELIGIOUS FREEDOM IN TIBET

April 22, 2008

China tries to teach Tibet a lesson that the monks have refused to learn. Pictures of the Dalai Lama are banned under rules of patriotic education.

From civil servants to yak herders, barley farmers and street traders, the residents of the Tibetan capital and surrounding countryside are being subjected to a two-month re-education campaign to combat anti-Chinese sentiment.

Under the latest drive to instil a sense of patriotism — titled “Oppose splittism, protect stability, encourage development” — those involved in the anti-Chinese Lhasa riots of March 14 will be asked to denounce their actions and condemn others who took part.

For thousands of monks across the restive Himalayan region and in adjacent provinces, such campaigns have become part of life in the monasteries.

Reminiscent in tone and rhetoric of the Cultural Revolution, patriotic lessons attack the “wrongs” of taking part in anti-Chinese protests or demonstrations in support of the Dalai Lama as China tries to persuade Tibetans to renounce their exiled spiritual leader.

Political education, an occasional if unwelcome interruption into monastic life, has become a daily ritual for monks such as Wangchuk — not his real name — who no longer have the freedom to watch the latest DVD, surf the internet or chat with friends on their mobile phones.

Wangchuk’s monastery has been his home since he was a child. He gets up at dawn, offers holy water and lights a yak butter lamp to honour the Buddha protector of his temple and the Dalai Lama — in all his 14 reincarnations.

Under more peaceable circumstances Wangchuk’s afternoon would have comprised an array of different activities, from saying prayers for the dead “to help their soul reach Heaven” to debates with his fellow monks or time spent with his teacher.

Now, the monasteries have been closed to the public and a very different study session forms part of his timetable: patriotic education:

“This is compulsory. There’s no excuse for not attending — unless you’re ill and then you have to have a note from doctor.”

The sessions used to be called for a week once every two or three months. They now take place almost daily. “We gather in the main hall and Communist Party officials deliver a speech telling us to be patriotic and they give each monk a paper to read.”

This session takes place in the morning; in the afternoon the monks are summoned to answer questions. “Usually it’s pretty relaxed. If I can’t remember my answers then I just repeat the same as the monk in front of me.

“Sometimes it turns more serious. That is when the police arrive. They stand beside each monk listening carefully to make sure each answer is correct. If the police come we have to lie. We have to say, ‘I love the Motherland. I don’t love him’. They don’t require you to explain who ‘him’ is, because we all know.”

Beijing has blamed the recent violence on the Dalai Lama and his followers. “We learn from the patriotic education that many things are banned. For example, we can’t have pictures of the Dalai Lama and we mustn’t listen to what people outside China tell us.”

In the past few weeks groups of Tibetan monks have staged highly publicised protests, including hijacking official tours of the region put on for foreign journalists.

The latest re-education campaign, which will include films and television programmes, suggests that China fears the spread of the discontent.

Sara on August 18th, 2008 at 12:17 am

Hi Jane,

Yes, I too read this article - it’s all very sad - and STILL the chinese would have us believe that there are no human rights abuse in Tibet.

So much for the ‘liberation of Tibet’ eh?

yugung on August 18th, 2008 at 8:37 am

Sara:
My answer:
you are twisting my words - I have already stated that the Dalai Lama is not seeking independence - he is seeking autonomy, since autonomy is better than nothing - and no, I do not claim to speak for the Dalai Lama, neither can I read his mind. I don’t know why you’ve said this, since everyone in the world knows this is what the Dalai Lama is trying to obtain for Tibet.

Yugung:
The Dalai Lama said Tibet is too dependent on the rest of China economically that he do not want independence. No point for you to beat around the bush.

yugung on August 18th, 2008 at 8:39 am

sara:
The only nation who has no stake in the well-being of Tibet is China. That is obvious! and what do you mean by saying “they don’t have to live with the consequences of their actions? Explain yourself.

Yugung:
The nations that has the most to gain from misery in Tibet are UK and USA.

yugung on August 18th, 2008 at 8:48 am

sara:
Wrong! Tibetans are not citizens of China, therefore they cannot be classed as ‘chinese’. If they WERE, why are they still referred to as Tibetans, even by the chinese? It’s the same for the Mongolians who live in Inner Mongolia. They are Mongolian, not chinese. I think both the Tibetans and Mongolians would be horrified to be classed as ‘chinese’.
Yugung:
Tibetans in China are citizen of China.
There are 56 ethnic groups in China.
Just like some Americans are Navajos or Apachy, some Chinese are Tibetan or Sala.
Get ur vacabuary right first.

yugung on August 18th, 2008 at 8:53 am

Sara:
It is the Tibetans themselves who want Tibet for ethnic Tibetans only - and why not? They don’t want to be occupied and controlled by communist china. At various times in history, when China was controlled by other countries, the chinese fought to get their country back - and this is what the Tibetans are trying to do. What’s so wrong with that?

yugung:
Tibet is a multi-ethnic place for centuries.
I doesn’t matter what some Tibetan want or what the Anglo-USA alliance want, we r not going to let it happen.

yugung on August 18th, 2008 at 8:56 am

sara:
Which government statistics are these? The Chinese government’s statistics? Since the late 19th century, the Chinese presence in Eastern Tibet has increased, however mixed marriages between Tibetans and Chinese are still not very common. Why would a Tibetan Buddhist want to marry a chinese communist? It doesn’t make sense!

Yugung:
I think u need an IQ of at least 70 to understand statistics. It’s probably too hard for u.

yugung on August 18th, 2008 at 8:59 am

sara:
CCP literally ban anything to do with the ‘outside world’ and why the CCP seeks to continually SUPRESS their own citizens, by not allowing them to think for themselves and not allowing them to make their own decisions in life. It’s called ‘brain-washing’.
Yugung:
Not only u don’t have minimal IQ to function normally, u need to go to a mental hospital. U r completely out of touch with the real world.

Sara on August 18th, 2008 at 5:32 pm

Since, as you have so eloquently stated, I have a low IQ, I should go to a mental hospital and I am completely out of touch with the real world, you could ‘enlighten’ me and explain yourself more clearly, so that I CAN understand!!

Ok, here goes:

You wrote: The Dalai Lama said Tibet is too dependent on the rest of China economically that he do not want independence. No point for you to beat around the bush.

My answer: Actually, the Dalai Lama proposes a middle way, in which China would grant Tibet a degree of internal autonomy under a one-country, two-systems style of arrangements somewhat similar to those pertaining in Hong Kong.

It is the Dalai Lama’s own people, who want independence (and not just autonomy) and they are frustrated by the Dalai Lama’s moderate, middle-path approach.

Ask yourself this Yugung - if the Tibetans were better off, under chinese occupation, why are they so desperate for independence and for the chinese to get out of Tibet?

You also wrote:
The nations that has the most to gain from misery in Tibet are UK and USA.

My answer:
I don’t understand what you mean. Please be specific. You can’t make such a statement, without giving a reason.

You also wrote:
Tibetans in China are citizen of China. There are 56 ethnic groups in China. Just like some Americans are Navajos or Apachy, some Chinese are Tibetan or Sala. Get ur vacabuary right first.

My answer:
So are you saying that, when China was occupied/ controlled by the Japanese and Mongolians, the chinese were citizens of Japan and Mongolia during that period?

You also wrote:
Tibet is a multi-ethnic place for centuries. I doesn’t matter what some Tibetan want or what the Anglo-USA alliance want, we r not going to let it happen.

My answer:
Tibet has certainly NOT been a multi-ethnic place (country) for centuries. How did you come to this conclusion?
As for saying ” I doesn’t matter what some Tibetan want or what the Anglo-USA alliance want, we r not going to let it happen”……. I guess what you mean is that China will never let go of its control over Tibet. Is that correct?

So it’s ok for China to fight and drive out the Japanese and Mongolians who invaded China in the past, but it’s NOT ok for Tibet to try and drive out the Chinese? Is that what you are saying?

You also wrote:
I think u need an IQ of at least 70 to understand statistics. It’s probably too hard for u.

This was your response to my question about mixed marriages in Tibet, between Buddhists and communists.

I am asking you AGAIN Yugung, which government statistics are these? The Chinese government’s statistics? Show me some proof…..

You also wrote:
Not only u don’t have minimal IQ to function normally, u need to go to a mental hospital. U r completely out of touch with the real world.

My answer:
It’s a well known FACT that the CCP suppresses its citizens and seeks to control many aspects of their lives. You have even stated yourself, in an earlier comment, that the trend is for a more ‘open China’ - although what this means exactly, remains to be seen.

Finally Yugung, if you want to criticise my vocabulary, go ahead. I really don’t mind. I think you have an ANACHRONISTIC STALINIST VOCABULARY.

I have more to say to you later!!!!

Sara on August 18th, 2008 at 6:45 pm

This message has been ‘modified’ by forum administration (Robert Vance)

Sara,

I am very sorry but I have had to remove this content because I am afraid that it could trigger this site being blocked by the CCP since it is in Chinese. Anything that shows up in Chinese like this about this particular topic will certainly catch someone’s attention. Would it be possible for you to store this information somewhere else and link to it? I have saved it for you and will certainly be glad to send it to you if you would like.

I wish it wasn’t like this. People should have a right to post but this is the current state in China…

Feel free to contact me through the ‘contact’ button on the top…

Sara on August 18th, 2008 at 6:54 pm

The last paragraph above, translated into English, reads as follows:

The CCP not only deprives Chinese people of the right to know the truth, the right to speak and to practice one’s belief and other rights guaranteed by the Chinese Constitution, but also ignores U.S. law and openly dispatched its spies into the United States to undermine the American people’s enjoyment of their rights to freedom of speech and assembly. Such an act has definitely incurred righteous people’s condemnation.

YUGUNG, tell me again that the CCP does not seek to ‘brain-wash’ their citizens.

yugung on August 19th, 2008 at 8:23 am

Sara,
u said “CCP literally ban anything to do with the ‘outside world’ “.
I thought u need to go to a mental hospital to fix that delusion.

yugung on August 19th, 2008 at 9:05 am

Sara said:
Actually, the Dalai Lama proposes a middle way, in which China would grant Tibet a degree of internal autonomy under a one-country, two-systems style of arrangements somewhat similar to those pertaining in Hong Kong.

Yugung reply:
The Dalai Lama wants the whole of Qinghai, most of Gansu, western Sichuan and part of Yunan under his control. That is 30% of China’s land mass.

How can Tibet be comparable with Hong kong. HK is a thriving financial centre, the 4th largest in the world. HK has large currency reserve and a large pool of talents.
Tibet is the 2nd poorest province of China with one of the lowest literacy rate. Tibet needs a lot of help and a big infusion of capital and skill.

If the Dalai Lama stop making demand, it may be possible for him to play a religious role in Tibet.

Sara said this:
It is the Dalai Lama’s own people, who want independence (and not just autonomy) and they are frustrated by the Dalai Lama’s moderate, middle-path approach.
Ask yourself this Yugung - if the Tibetans were better off, under chinese occupation, why are they so desperate for independence and for the chinese to get out of Tibet?

Yugung:
Who are the Dalai Lama’s people?
90% are born out side Tibet.
Most of them speak more English than Tibetans (language).
Their biggest wish is to migrate to USA. 2 of Dalai Lama’s brothers are already US citizens.
They have no stake in the well being of Tibet. The Tibetan Youth Congress is just the tool of the CIA.
Since the CIA brought them to India USA should offer them citizenship,
just like the Hmong stranded in Thailand.

yugung on August 19th, 2008 at 9:19 am

Who has the most to gain from spliting China?
US has identified China as its biggest potential rival for influence in the world.
U can read their Pentagon or CIA documents. (since u r not brainwahsed, i m sure u can find them yourself.) Interestingly US secretary of Defence Gate stress the need to develope “soft power’ against China. Soft power= propaganda war.
UK of course always have that knee jerk reaction to support whatever US do.

yugung on August 19th, 2008 at 10:32 am

Sara said this:
So are you saying that, when China was occupied/ controlled by the Japanese and Mongolians, the chinese were citizens of Japan and Mongolia during that period?

Yugung reply:
Chinese did not become Japanese citizen between 1937-1945.
Likewise the people of Hong Kong was not given British citizenship between 1855-1997.
Japanese sovereignty of occupied China was not recognized internationally except for a few Fascist states and the Vatican.
China’s sovereignty of Tibet is recognized by the all UN members and of course Tibetans are Chinese citizens.

Sara:
Tibet has certainly NOT been a multi-ethnic place (country) for centuries. How did you come to this conclusion?

Yugung reply:
Tibet is a multi ethnic place of centuries.
There are old mosque in Lhasa built by the Hui muslim.
Here is the Hebalin Mosque in Lhasa built in 1713 but repaired and expanded many times since.
http://big5.tibet.cn/g2b/info.tibet.cn/newzt/rsxzzt/xzsm/t20050708_41016.htm

Here is a Guangong temple (关公庙) in Lhasa for the ethnic Han and Man built 200 years ago.
http://www.xzly800.com/Photo/276.htm
All these prove that Tibet have been a multi-ethnic place in history.
Recently one of the mosque in Lhasa was burnt down by rioters.

Sara said this:
As for saying ” I doesn’t matter what some Tibetan want or what the Anglo-USA alliance want, we r not going to let it happen”……. I guess what you mean is that China will never let go of its control over Tibet. Is that correct?

Yugung:
Is this new?
The CIA funded a secret war in Tibet for nearly 25 years but it failed because there was no local Tibetan support.

The CIA’s Secret War in Tibet, by Kenneth Conboy and James Morrison
page 213:

The CIA trained Tibetans from 1957 to 1972, in the United States, and parachuted them( Tibetan guerrilas) back into Tibet to organize rebellions against the PLA. But with little support from fellow Tibetans they often fell to the hands of the PLA quickly. In one incident, one agent was immediately reported by his own brother and all three agents in the team were arrested. They were not mistreated. After less than a month of propaganda sessions they were escorted to the Indian border and released.
—————

yugung on August 19th, 2008 at 10:45 am

yugung:
According to 1990 government statistics there are 3652 Han -Tibetan mix households in the Tibetan Autonomous region.

sara asked:
I am asking you AGAIN Yugung, which government statistics are these? The Chinese government’s statistics? Show me some proof…..

Yugung:
There is only one Government statistic published by the National Bureau of Statistics of China and it is use by everybody in China.
It is better that u go and find out for yourself if u are truely interested. No matter waht i say u wouldn’t be satisfied.

Jason Ding on August 19th, 2008 at 1:03 pm

It’s because you believe the following message is the truth. For us, we would laugh at this messages. Please go ahead to believe this. You have the right to do that. Those message is only to cheat those who don’t understand Chinese and CCP for their own benefit or profit.

Sara said:
Sara on August 18th, 2008 at 6:54 pm
The last paragraph above, translated into English, reads as follows:

Sara on August 19th, 2008 at 5:30 pm

So I’m delusional, am I? The chinese citizens know just as much about what is going on in the rest of the world, as the rest of us do? I see…..

Anyway, speaking of ‘delusional’ - here is something for you to read:

CHINA’S SCHOOL TEXTBOOKS TWIST - AND OMISSION OF HISTORY

By Howard French, December 6, 2004 (visit to a chinese high school)

SHANGHAI, Dec. 5 - The history teacher maintained a blistering pace, clicking from one frame quickly to the next, during a lecture on China’s relations with the world from 1929 to 1939 in one of this country’s most selective high schools.

There was Hitler, shown on parade, his hand lifted in the Nazi salute. The teacher mimicked the gesture, to brief laughter, announcing the year the dictator came to power, with no pause for a discussion of fascism.

Pushing ahead quickly, he said the United States was exploiting Canadian and Latin American resources, while Britain fed off India. Wherever it could, France, which was dismissed in barely a sentence, mostly followed Britain’s example.

Getting to the heart of the lesson, the teacher said Japan decided to pursue its own longtime desire for a continental empire, and attacked China.

The presentation lingered on a famous 1937 picture of a Chinese baby sitting in the middle of a Shanghai road amid the Japanese aerial bombing of China. Then, moments later, the teacher announced plainly, “America’s attitude toward the Japanese invasion of China stopped at empty moral criticism.”

This country has made a national pastime of wagging its finger at its neighbor, Japan, which it regularly scolds for not teaching the “correct history” about Japan’s invasion of China in the 1930’s, straining relations between Asia’s biggest powers.

However, a visit to a Chinese high school classroom and an examination of several of the most widely used history textbooks here reveal a mishmash of historical details that many Chinese educational experts themselves say are highly selective and often provide a deeply distorted view of the recent past.

Most Chinese students finish high school convinced that their country has fought wars only in self-defense, never aggressively or in conquest, despite the People’s Liberation Army’s invasion of Tibet in 1950 and the ill-fated war with Vietnam in 1979, to take two examples.

Similarly, many believe that Japan was defeated largely as a result of Chinese resistance, not by the United States.

“The fundamental reason for the victory is that the Chinese Communist Party became the core power that united the nation,” says one widely used textbook, referring to World War II.

No one learns that perhaps 30 million people died from famine because of catastrophic decisions made in the 1950’s, during the Great Leap Forward, by the founder of Communist China, Mao Zedong.

Similar elisions occur in everything from the start of the Korean War, with an invasion of South Korea by China’s ally, North Korea, to the history of Taiwan, which Beijing claims as an irrevocable part of China.

“The Anti-Japanese War finally succeeded, and Taiwan came back to the motherland,” another leading textbook states, referring to Japan’s defeat in World War II and the loss of its colonial hold on Taiwan.

“The closer history gets to the present, the more political it becomes,” said Chen Minghua, a 12th grade history teacher at the No. 2 Secondary School in Shanghai. “So for things after the founding of the People’s Republic, we only require students to know the basic facts, like what happened in what year, and we don’t study why.”

Although some defend the curriculum, many academics say the way history is taught in China forces even the best teachers to bob and weave around anything deemed delicate by the country’s leaders and leaves students confused about their own country’s place in the world.

Asked what they made of the discussion of the 1930’s, one student at the Shanghai high school eagerly volunteered that China had prevented Japan from taking over much of the world. Another said war was inevitable. And a third, who approached the teacher after class to pursue the discussion, said the war had not been a bad thing, since it had prevented Japan from becoming a world power.

Defenders of China’s curriculum say that whatever its shortcomings, history education has vastly improved in recent years. There is more choice among textbooks, even if ALL TEXTBOOKS ARE CAREFULLY SCREENED BY THE GOVERNMENT FIRST and once taboo subjects, like the Chinese Nationalists’ contribution during the war against Japan and even the Cultural Revolution are being mentioned, if only cursorily, in more and more textbooks.

Asked why Chinese textbooks do not mention such matters as Tibet’s claim to independence at the time Communist troops invaded, Ren Penjie, editor of a history education magazine in Xian, said: “These are still matters of controversy. What we present to children are less controversial facts, which are easier to explain.”

Others said such events were too recent to be seen with objectivity, or that the facts were still coming in, both of which are common explanations offered by Japanese historians who defend the lack of candor about Japanese atrocities in World War II.

For his part, Mr. Ren, who took part in the 1989 protests in Tiananmen Square, which ended in a military crackdown that left hundreds of civilians dead, counted that event as being far too recent to touch upon.

One 1998 textbook that alludes to the demonstrations calls them a “storm” created by the failure of leaders to stop the spread of “bourgeois liberalism,” adding vaguely that “the Central Committee took action in time and restored calm.”

The most recent edition of the same textbook is vaguer still, speaking only of thoughts fanned by a small number of people whose aim was to overthrow the Communist Party, with no mention of the lethal aftermath.

Some Chinese history specialists were less inclined to make excuses for the evasions, however.

“Quite frankly, in China there are some areas, very sensitive subjects, where it is impossible to tell people the truth,” said Ge Jianxiong, director of the Institute of Chinese Historical Geography at Fudan University in Shanghai and a veteran of official history textbook advisory committees.

“Going very deeply into the history of Mao Zedong, Deng Xiaoping and some features of the Liberation” - as the Communist victory is called - “is forbidden. In China, history is still used as a political tool, and at the high school level, we still must follow the doctrine.”

Taking the long view, though, Mr. Ge, 59, who taught high school during the 1966-76 Cultural Revolution, when teachers were beaten and education became hyper-politicized, said things were gradually getting better.

Su Zheliang, a historian at Shanghai Normal University, who is himself the author of a new textbook, agreed.

“Sometimes I want to write the truth, but I must take a practical approach,” he said. “I want my students to learn, and I’ve put out the best book that I can. In 10 years, perhaps, China will be a much more open country.”

Your comments, Yugung?????

Sara on August 19th, 2008 at 5:37 pm

Hi Robert,

Sorry for posting an article in the Chinese language - I should have known it could trigger a ban by the CCP.

I have the article saved on my computer, so there’s no need to send me a copy, but thanks anyway.

Sara on August 19th, 2008 at 6:05 pm

I thought the Chinese still viewed Mao as their hero / idol, despite the fact he starved and killed millions of his own people?

It was Mao who referred to the ‘intellectuals’ as ’stinking number 9’s’ - and I was only repeating his words.

Yes, those days are all in the past, but nevertheless, it’s part of your history !!

Chen on August 20th, 2008 at 1:22 am

@Sara,
You just don’t apologize do you? How sad.

You wrote:
It was Mao who referred to the ‘intellectuals’ as ’stinking number 9’s’ - and I was only repeating his words.

You totally miss the point. Maybe Yugung is right about you.

@Robert
Criticize Chinese gov and Chinese people is one thing, but try to distort the history is intolerable. If Sara go on like this, and attract more Chinese people’s attention, your little website will be swarmed with angry words, I don’t think it’s a constructive way to go. Don’t hate the Chinese when that happened. Good luck.

Sara on August 20th, 2008 at 4:12 am

What point have I missed? And in what way have I tried to distort history?

Please explain.

Sara on August 20th, 2008 at 4:44 am

You wrote:
According to 1990 government statistics there are 3652 Han -Tibetan mix households in the Tibetan Autonomous region.

I then asked you to tell me which government statistics are these? The Chinese government’s statistics? Show me some proof…..

You replied, by writing:
There is only one Government statistic published by the National Bureau of Statistics of China and it is use by everybody in China.
It is better that u go and find out for yourself if u are truely interested. No matter waht i say u wouldn’t be satisfied.

I KNEW IT….. I knew it would be CHINA’S government statistics you were quoting, in which case it is bound to be false. I’ll do some research myself and get back to you on it.

You also said I will never be satisfied with anything you say - that’s not true. It’s just so frustrating when you refuse, time and again, to honestly acknowledge the human rights abuse which goes on in both China and Tibet.

It’s like talking to a brick wall.

I don’t get half as frustrated with Jason or Chen, because they are both still in China and therefore I can understand why they think the way they do.

But you, Yugung, you are not currently living in China, you have access to all kinds of articles and reports, and news broadcasts. You know exactly what is happening in both China and Tibet, yet you refuse to open your eyes and mind. Why are you like this? Doesn’t human rights abuse bother you?

yugung on August 20th, 2008 at 9:49 am

Sara cut and pasted this:
Most Chinese students finish high school convinced that their country has fought wars only in self-defense, never aggressively or in conquest, despite the People’s Liberation Army’s invasion of Tibet in 1950 and the ill-fated war with Vietnam in 1979, to take two examples.

Yugung:
China did not invade Tibet.
This is a myth created by the CIA for the Korean War.
How can China be accused of invading Tibet when the entire world recognized China’s sovereignty of China over Tibet.
Read this State Department document again in case u missed it before:
————
Testimony by Kent M Wiedmann, Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for
East Asian and Pacific Affairs before Subcimmittee on East Asian and
Pacific Affairs, Senate Foreign Relation Committee.

Excerpt:
U.S. Policy Toward Tibet

The United States considers the Tibet Autonomous Region or TAR (hereinafter referred to as “Tibet”) as part of the People’s Republic of China. This longstanding policy is consistent with the view of the entire international community, including all China’s neighbors: no country recognizes Tibet as a sovereign state. Moreover, U.S. acceptance of China’s claim of sovereignty over Tibet predates the establishment of the People’s Republic of China. In 1942, we told the Nationalist Chinese government then headquartered in Chongqing (Chungking) that we had “at no time raised (a) question” over Chinese claims to Tibet.
————–
The view of India：
In his speech at the Lok Sabba in 1954, India’s Prime
Minister Jawaharlal Nehru said, Over the past several hundred years,
as far as I know, at no time has any foreign country denied China’s
sovereignty over Tibet.

—————–
China fought a brief war with Vietnam to punish Vietnam’s invasion of Cambodia.
That war lasted a few weeks. Chinese history span over a period of several thousands years; a few weeks war with Vietnam carry no historical significance. Moreover China withdrew its troops after achieving military target. This is completely different from war carried out by the imperialists.

Robert Vance on August 20th, 2008 at 10:55 am

@Yugung,

The excerpt that you include in your last post is very interesting because it proves to me how brainwashed many Chinese people are (or is it just ignorance?) to automatically ‘hate’ the American government even though they have no idea what our policies actually are on China.

My adult students love to tell me that if they could sit down with President Bush they would criticize him for trying to break China apart on the issue of Tibet and Taiwan.

Their jaws always drop to the floor (and sometimes red faces as well are evident) when I explain to them that

1). The U.S. supports Beijing on the 1-China policy. We do not hold official relations with Taiwan.

2). The U.S. government also supports China on the Tibet issue.

People are shocked to hear this because they want to hate the U.S….

yugung on August 20th, 2008 at 11:20 am

RV,
Your students are not brianwashed.
US has one official policy of supporting one China while CIA backed the Dalai Lama to split China. That’s is why they call it “CIA’s secret war in Tibet”. Documeny on CIA’s involvement was only partially declassified in ?1998.
While I donot defend those Chinese who have cheated u, I also want to tell u that US government operate the world’s most sophisticated lie machine.

yugung on August 20th, 2008 at 12:09 pm

To Sara

1) u claimed that Tibetans look different from Hans.
I even find anthropopogist study to proof u wrong.
2) u claim that there is no intermarriages between Tibetans and Hans.
Even without statistics, most of us will know of some examples around us that Tibetan do marry Hans. When I produced the statistics u said the Chinese Gov lied.
In ur world, people who disagree with u are brainwashed.

I don’t believe U or any of the so call Tibet camapigners are interested in the well being of Tibetans. They are just attaching their own anti-chinese political agenda on a suject they they poorly understood, hoping to gain respectability by pretending to be concern about human rights. I have already pointed out thier links to the US and UK governments.

Jason Ding on August 20th, 2008 at 12:42 pm

“I don’t get half as frustrated with Jason or Chen, because they are both still in China and therefore I can understand why they think the way they do.”

If you still think living in China or abroad are quite different, I have to tell you that your concept is absolutely obsolete.

For us, it’s no problem to get any information.

But for you, you don’t understand Chinese, you can not get more information than I can.

I have been to America, Europe, South Asia. Have you been to China?

You have less sources than I have. Please don’t use “the concept that living in China means brainwashed” as an execuse to explain everything.

Think about why Yugung and I could have the same opinion although we live in different places.

yugung on August 20th, 2008 at 2:25 pm

Sara:
Su Zheliang, a historian at Shanghai Normal University, who is himself the author of a new textbook, agreed.

Yugung:
Any historian worth his salt will know that Tibet is part of China.

yugung on August 20th, 2008 at 3:31 pm

Sara cut and pasted this:
” Then, moments later, the teacher announced plainly, “America’s attitude toward the Japanese invasion of China stopped at empty moral criticism.”

Yugung:
This is true.
In around ?1910, USA and Japan signed a secret treaty where by Japan allowed US occupation of Philippines in exchange for Japan taking Korea and Liaoning Peninsula of China, together with the port of Dalian and the rail road.
From then onward US passively accepted Japan’s aggression against China.
Japan eventually occupied all the ports of China. They then went on to take Indo-China and Malaya.
USA done nothing to help China until Pearl Harbor was bombed in Dec 1941.
Every American remembered the Flying Tigers.
They went into action 12 days after Pearl Harbor was bombed.
They were heroic no doubt but it wasn’t that effective.
They operated from Burma and later moved to China after Burma fell into Japanese hands.
Chinese fought the Japanese alone for nearly a decade before the western powers join in to safe their own skin. Japan lost 1.5 mil troops in China theatre.
Even the Flying Tigers were mercenary force not regular US air force. What ever it was, Chinese are grateful to these brave pilots.

Sara on August 24th, 2008 at 5:56 am

You had this to say about Su Zheliang, a historian at Shanghai Normal University:

“Any historian worth his salt will know that Tibet is part of China”.

Yugung, I suggest you read the above article again. It is not only Su Zheilang who wishes he could tell the truth about china’s history, but teachers do too, and what they are saying is that they are not allowed to tell the truth to their pupils.

The above article does not even mention Tibet, so I don’t know why you answered as you did.

The article refers to china’s history and the reasons behind why historians and teachers are not allowed to tell their pupils the truth.

Why is this Yugung? Why can’t chinese students learn the truth about Mao and about the Tian’anmen Square massacre? Why hide it?

Don’t tell me that students ARE being taught the truth, because you would be lying if you said this.

yugung on August 24th, 2008 at 11:40 pm

Sara aisd:
The above article does not even mention Tibet, so I don’t know why you answered as you did.

yugung:
This thread is about Tibet.
Any historian worth his salt will know that Tibet is part of China. This applies to Su Zheilang. Of course he will not say China invaded Tibet. Using him to support ur argument that Tibet was invaded is a waste of time.

China is a normal country. Some teachers want to add certain topics into the text book.That is normal, but not everybody get his wish. In writting a text book one must consider the fact that students will have to take exams based on what he learned. Controversial topics should be left out.

Does UK middle school student learn about massacre in Iraq following Anglo-USA invasion?

Sara on August 25th, 2008 at 1:18 am

Yes, this ‘thread’ is about Tibet - but it is about China’s involvement in Tibet, as you know.

Su Zheilang is not the only one who stated he wished he could tell the truth - the article mentions teachers as well - at one of China’s best schools, no less.

How can you say China is a normal country, and then go on to say that “some teachers want to add certain topics…. but not everyone gets his wish….” ????

You also wrote: ” In writting a text book one must consider the fact that students will have to take exams based on what he learned. Controversial topics should be left out”.

Why should controversial topics be left out? If an event happened, then it happened -end of story. If it’s controversial, then it makes for good class debate.

You can’t try and change history after the event - either by distorting the facts or by simply ignoring that certain events happened.

As Ma Jian (author of Beijing Coma) stated: “If a country is denied access to their own history, they have a distorted view….”

It’s no wonder that people like you, Jason, and Chen get angry and tell me that I am distorting the truth, when the fact is that we in the West know more about China’s history than you do. Mao, for example, is viewed as a ‘great leader’ - yeah, right !!

You also asked if UK middle school student learn about massacre in Iraq following Anglo-USA invasion?

I don’t know, I left school 20 years ago and I don’t have any children. But I will certainly enquire about the school curriculum on history, and get back to you.

What I can say, is that any student interested in world news, has access to it, whether that be on the internet, radio or TV.

Sara on August 25th, 2008 at 3:51 am

GOVERNMENT HOUSING IN TIBET

Government housing is transforming Tibet’s once stunning landscape.

“Our house will cost 100,000 yuan (£6,500), and the government is paying half,” said a woman in a village near the town of Gyantse. Then she indicated the Chinese flag flying above it. “But we have to fly the flag, or they will come and take the money back. Inside, we have to put up a poster of Mao.”

Another resident had the propaganda posters in her living room, one showing President Hu Jintao, the other a trinity of former leaders, Chairman Mao, Deng Xiaoping and Jiang Zemin. On top was a photograph of the Dalai Lama.

“The Chinese officials gave me these posters,” she said, reciting the four names. “They come and inspect the house to make sure they are there – of course, I hide the Dalai Lama picture before they arrive.”

What do you have to say about this, Yugung? The woman is a liar?

Sara on August 25th, 2008 at 8:05 am

THE LIVES OF TIBETAN CHILDREN UNDER CHINESE RULE

(1) EDUCATION

As Chen Kuiyuan candidly proclaimed at the Fifth Regional Meeting on Education, the paramount goal of CCP educational policy in Tibet is to secure the ‘loyalty’ of Tibetan children to the ‘great motherland and the great socialist cause.’

In other words, the primary objective of school in Tibet is not to educate but to indoctrinate. This approach violates China’s international legal obligation to direct education toward the child’s development and well-being, not the state’s political interests.

The CCP’s manipulation of education to ensure its political control in Tibet is not a new development. According to TIN, educational policy throughout China since the PRC’s founding has vacillated between two broad philosophies in some tension with one another: the so-called ‘quantity’ and ‘quality’ theories.

The quantity theory emphasizes mass ideological education. Mao and other hard-line communists promoted this philosophy in an effort to mould China’s youth into a model socialist society.

The quality theory, by contrast, advocates directing resources toward the academic and technological training of a select educational elite, in an effort to accelerate China’s economic development. This theory prevailed in the early 1950s and reemerged in the more liberal era associated with Deng Xiaoping.

But the perceived link between the quality theory’s devaluation of ideological indoctrination and the political protests that erupted in Lhasa in 1987 caused hard-liners in the CCP to reassert the quantity theory in Tibet and to advocate a reversion to mass political indoctrination as a tool of social control.

This trend, as Chen Kuiyuan’s express endorsement of ideological education reveals, persists today.

The content of education in Tibetan schools thus tends to reveal the state’s underlying goal of fostering political loyalty among Tibetan children.

China subordinates the academic and personal development of Tibet’s children to the objective of ensuring their ideological and social conformity. The language and curriculum policies in Tibetan schools provide evidence of this trend.

In general, Tibetan children reported that they learned in the Chinese language and about Chinese culture, history and politics.

Tibetan history and culture, by contrast, received at best a few token references.

For the most part, children said that their school teachers and staff ignored, denigrated, prohibited and at times punished references to Tibetan culture, particularly its religious traditions.

At the same time, the quality theory apparently continues to exert some influence on education in Tibet.

Secondary education, particularly higher education (college or professional school), remains the exclusive province of an elite selected by board exams. These tests are administered mostly in Chinese.

Tibetans - even those who excel in the state-run primary schools - therefore remain at a disadvantage.

While Tibetan may remain the medium of instruction in a few Tibetan primary schools, only by mastering Chinese can Tibetan children hope to secure access to a higher education.

Even then, the discriminatory effects of guangxi and bribery often prevent bright Tibetan students from attending the higher quality secondary schools attended by their Chinese peers.

Together, these factors operate to exclude most Tibetan children from attaining the academic achievement and professional training they need to improve their social and economic status.

Furthermore, the denigration of Tibet’s language, history, culture and religion reinforces in the minds of Tibetan children a pervasive sense of cultural inferiority.

China’s educational policies fail to promote Tibetan children’s development and well-being.

On the contrary, as the ICJ concluded in 1997, ‘rather than instilling in Tibetan children respect for their own cultural identity, language and values, as required under the [CRC], education in Tibet serves to ideologically indoctrinate Tibetan children.

It is also designed to convey a sense of inferiority of their own culture, religion and language in comparison to the dominant Chinese culture and values.’ Our research suggests that today, three years later, this conclusion continues to capture the effect of China’s system of education on Tibetan children.

Local authorities recognize the connection between the Tibetan language and the Tibetan people’s consciousness of a distinct national identity.

As a result, Tibetan, which theoretically remains the official language of the TAR, is marginalized.

Several Tibetan children reported that they learned in their own language from grades one through three, but thereafter all instruction shifted to Chinese.

Only Tibetan language class itself, from which Chinese children were exempted, continued to be taught in Tibetan.

Many Tibetan children found learning in Chinese both alienating and an impediment to their understanding. Many drop out because they are frustrated with being ‘forced to study Chinese.’

Many students are told that ‘if you fail in Tibetan, it doesn’t really matter, but you must do well in Chinese.’

The reason for this is readily apparent. After the first three grades, most tests - and all state board exams - are administered in Chinese only.

Furthermore, advanced Chinese language skills appear to be a prerequisite for most good jobs in Tibet. Tibetan children expressed a strong desire to learn written and spoken Tibetan. But primary schools in Tibet have effectively relegated it to the status of a second language.

(B) Political and Ideological Curriculum

For many Tibetan children, Chinese primary school education is overtly political.

While the three most common subjects taught in primary school - Chinese, Tibetan and mathematics - appear ‘neutral’ politically, others, such as history and social studies, frequently aim to inculcate loyalty to the state or indoctrinate Tibetan children in the PRC’s version of socialism.

Several students reported being forced to pledge allegiance to the Chinese government.

International law emphasizes, however, that children, no less than adults, must be permitted to exercise the right to freedom of speech. National pledges must be voluntary.

Yet several students reported that they risked humiliation, beatings and even expulsion if they refused to swear loyalty to China.

In 1996, said one boy from Amdo, ‘[we] were made to pledge that we like China and that Tibet is a part of China. The Chinese willingly make the pledge, but if the Tibetans don’t, they will be beaten.’

At most schools, children reported, teachers respected and celebrated Chinese holidays. By contrast, they ignored, discouraged and even banned celebration of Tibetan festivals (such as Losar, the Tibetan New Year) at schools.

Some children told us that teachers forced them to sing Chinese national songs, often as a daily routine.

‘The worst time,’ recalled one girl from central Tibet, ‘was when we were forced to sing a song for Mao Zedong even if we refused.’

Some Tibetan parents apparently choose to keep their children at home because they do not want them exposed to the ideological indoctrination that characterizes Chinese primary schools.

Sara on August 30th, 2008 at 6:00 am

YUGUNG: you wrote:

The Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama did not like each other.
That ’s why in the 17 point agreement, point 5 and 6 were refering to Panchen Lama and his status in Tibet.

MY COMMENT:

If you knew anything about Tibetan history, you would know that the Panchen Lama is the SECOND highest ranking Lama AFTER the Dalai Lama in the Gelugpa sect of Tibetan Buddhism (the sect which controlled western Tibet from the 16th century until the Seventeen Point Agreement).

At no time, has any Panchen Lama held EQUAL status to any Dalai Lama - NEVER.

THE CURRENT PANCHEN LAMA:
Who is the true present (11th) incarnation of the Panchen Lama is a matter of controversy: the PRC asserts it is Qoigyijabu, while the Tibetan Government in Exile maintains it is Gedhun Choekyi Nyima;

Gedhun Choekyi Nyima was arrested by the Chinese government in 1995 and has not been seen in public for many years since. He is the world’s YOUNGEST POLITICAL PRISONER.

The recognition of Panchen Lamas has always been a matter involving the Dalai Lama. The 10th Panchen Lama himself declared that “according to Tibetan tradition, the confirmation of either the Dalai or Panchen must be mutually recognized.”

The involvement of China in this affair is seen by the world as a political ploy to try to gain control over the recognition of the next Dalai Lama - and to strengthen their hold over the future of Tibet and its governance.

The Panchen Lama bears part of the responsibility for finding the incarnation of the Dalai Lama and vice versa.

Furthermore, the search for the late Panchen Lama’s reincarnation, or any reincarnation, is a TIBETAN AND NOT A CHINESE matter.

In the case of the Panchen Lama, the procedures traditionally involve a final selection process by the Dalai Lama. This has been the tradition since the Fifth Dalai lama recognized his teacher as the Panchen Lama of Tashilhunpo Monastery in Shigatse.

The current Dalai Lama named Gedhun Choekyi Nyima as the 11th reincarnation of the Panchen Lama on May 14, 1995 but the government of the PRC quickly named another child, Gyancain Norbu.

Shortly afterwards, Gedhun and his entire family vanished. The circumstances surrounding his disappearance and continued absence have led his supporters as well as the western media to refer to him as “THE WORLD’S YOUNGEST POLITICAL PRISONER”.

Chinese authorities state that Gedhun Choekyi Nyima has been taken into protective custody, but there is no reference to what, or whom he must be protected from.

Sara on August 30th, 2008 at 7:02 pm

Yugung:

You wrote that the Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama did not like each other - WRONG!

There was a rift between their two immediate predecessors, not between the present Dalai Lama and Panchen lama.

In 1950, two possible candidates had been discovered in Tibet itself, and the chinese themselves put forward a candidate in the territory they ruled.

Naturally, the Tibetan government and the monastic leaders wanted to carry out the traditional tests, but that was impossible at the time, and gradually the Panchen Lama came to be accepted as the true reincarnation. He was then already 11 or 12 years old.

The whole of his education and training was subject to chinese influence. And the chinese had certainly made use of him for their own political ends, knowing that he was too young to protest.

For example, when the communist government conquered china, a telegram of congratulations to them was sent and published in the Panchen Lama’s name, although he was only 10 years old at the time and had not yet been accepted as the reincarnation; and no doubt many people were deceived into thinking that this telegram came from official Tibetan circles.

The Dalai Lama had this to say about the Panchen Lama: “He first came to see me in 1953, in Lhasa, when he was 14 years old. Of course, he was brought by chinese officials.

He was formally presented to me in the traditional ceremonial way, as my junior not only in age, but also in position.

I could see at that very first meeting that the chinese were not happy with our ancient customs. They would have liked to see the Panchen Lama seated on the same leve

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