“Aiyaaa!” I exclaimed as a man stepped in front of me recently to take a bus seat that had just been vacated. The seat should have been mine but I wanted to give it to an elderly lady who was standing nearby. I waited for the man to look at me and then I pointed to the elderly woman who was also looking at me. The man’s face turned red and he quickly gave his seat to the appreciative lady.
Unfortunately, I have seen this situation played out again and again in China. It seems that Chinese men are too often lost in their own worlds and do not pay attention to what is going on around them. Hardly a day goes by that I do not witness elderly people, pregnant women, and children standing in front of young men who seem to be oblivious to their presence. If I am lucky enough to be sitting when this situation occurs, I will always jump out of my seat but not before I have waited a few seconds to see if any of the Chinese men on board offer their seats. That never happens.
I have even seen Chinese men shoving women out of the way in lines at train and bus stations. The concept of ‘ladies first’ is virtually non-existent in this country where ‘survival-of-the-fittest’ still rules. Most Chinese men that I observed are looking out only for themselves and act as if the people around them do not exist. I have witnessed men allowing doors to slam in women’s faces and jumping in front of women just to be the first to get on a bus. Just a few days ago, I yelled at a group of young men who boldy walked by a long line of people waiting to get on the bus. My admonishment did no good. As soon as the bus doors open, they jumped on and quickly took seats.
Last night, as I made the 45 minute bus trip from my school to my home, I observed that there were far more women standing than men. When a seat opened up, it was almost always a man who rushed to occupy it.
Fortunately, there are gentlemen in China; they are called women. The elderly, pregnant women, and children do have a chance to sit down because Chinese women always jump up and offer their seats to those in need. Compared to Chinese men, Chinese women are much more caring and unselfish. Chinese men act as if it is their right to sit down; they have no concept of ‘being a gentleman.’
This sense of entitlement on the part of Chinese men is a big problem in China. In a country where ‘manhood’ is still highly prized, however, such behavior is not entirely surprising. One child families – where parents and grandparents spoil their children ‘silly’ – produce millions of men who grow up believing that they are the kings of the world. After all, even well into their late teenage years, everything is done for them. Their mothers wash their clothes, cook meals for them, and their fathers pay for four years of university – the young men never have to work until the day they step out of the university. Students who I have spoken with on this issue admit to me that they were never taught how to have good manners by their parents. It simply never came up in a conversation.
“Westerns have problems with manners too,” a female Chinese friend reminded me recently. “There is no question, however, that the West could teach our men how to be better gentlemen.” What she said rang true. Just today in my university cafeteria, I watched as two French men cut in front of two dozen students who were waiting in line to pay for their lunch. No one complained. Regardless, I do believe that this problem among Chinese men is much worse than any other country that I have ever visited.
China’s overpopulated environment may promote an attitude of “every man for himself” but that is no excuse for the selfishness and utter lack of common decency that I witness almost every day on my way to and from work. While many such social problems may slowly fade away with China’s continued development, I fear that this particular issue needs special attention. Chinese women need to stop treating the men here like royalty and demand that they ‘wake up’ and pay attention to what is going on around them. Chinese men, for their part, need to stop acting as if they are the only ones who exist in China. China owes a great debt of gratitude to the elderly who have helped to bring China out of those dark years of oppression and starvation. Pregnant women deserve respect and special consideration because they are carrying the bright future of China. The least that men can do is to give these people a ‘lousy’ seat on a bus or train. Maybe someday, Chinese men might be willing to give up their seat for any woman who is standing.
So stand up Chinese men and be real men. Give your seats to those who need them and show us that you can be gentlemen.
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Of course, your boy emperor, August Buushit would give his seat to all the women around him, and your ever gentle Clinton even will help their ladies by putting his cigar to their ladies’ right place…. With all good “gentlemen” example, no wonder Bob is behaving like what he is doing here….
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Bob:
So they are not gentleman for not giving up their seats. Are they running around the world killing women and children and pretend to be “gentlemen.” afterwards…
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Mary:
Did you get hurt when the not so gentle Chinese men not pay you a fair price? Where are you coming from, young men got their women praganant and then just run off and it is just practical business routine… are you treated differently in China? if you are free at where are you coming from, why are you getting suddenly expensive and respectable for a change, after you are getting old and rusty….
Brits hooligans running amok after drinking all night and start gang fights, of course they are gentlemen…American kids using drugs, and dancing outside the bar and releasing themselves shamelessly, of course they are gentleman… you only get what do you deserve…. understand>?
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of course they are many gentlemen in U.S….. there are “gentlemen’s club” in every street corner…. and there are many ladies’ too…. on the stages, like Mary Catherine..
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You assume Chinese men care. They don’t.. They only get red faced when called appon not because they could have been wrong. And we must remember , it is women who teach the boys to think they are the only one who matters in the first place. If there was a tolet seat to be put back down, they would’nt do that eather.
I have 27 years experience in China and happy teaching in Inner-Mongolia I love and admire Chinese people, BUT – there are reasons why the young Chines women are always looking for a Western man !
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@Josh
Thanks for your post. Unfortunately, what I wrote was not ‘politically correct’ which is why some people have taken such great offense. That’s the great thing about blogging; I don’t have to be politically correct. However, I do entirely reject the implication by others on here that my post was racially motivated. Anyone who has spent time reading other posts on here knows that this is simply not the case. I certainly welcome disagreements…and maybe I was a little too harsh…but hate when people try to discount me as a ‘racially motivated’ writer….
Not only is the Chinese government ‘elevating’ Confucianism’ in China but they are also getting softer on ‘organized’ religion because they realize that religion could actually have a positive effect on society. I strongly believe that the problems I have written about can be solved and that it is not so much an issue with race but rather history…as you suggest…
@Jenny,
I appreciate your insights and respect the fact that you have not had the same experiences. My observations come from time spent in Southern, Central, and Northern China so what I write about is not just from one region. I have discussed this issue at great length with students and friends around here (and not just girls either) who agree that manners are lacking. The Chinese women that I know at least seem to feel the same way as I do. Anyway, I’m glad that you have had a different experience and that you can share that here…
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Are you serious Robert? I live in Nanning and have a much more positive view of Chinese men than you. There are some aspects of living in China that I find frustrating (not queuing up is a big one) but have not noticed any difference between the behaviour of men and women. I have on a number of occasions witnessed young chinese men give up their seats for the elderly. I think your criticism is rather harsh…
I’d just like to share something that I really appreciate about Chinese men. In my country, groups of young men will yell out sexist comments to young women on the street to impress their friends. This has never happened to me in China. My impression is that Chinese men are more respectful of women in public. He may cut ahead of you in the queue, but at least he wont make a sleazy, inappropriate comment on the way past. Anyway, these are just my subjective impressions.
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I agree with Robert’s fundamental point. There is a noticeable absence of chivalry in China. I’ve lived there for almost 3 years and am returning soon. I don’t think the majority of Western men are much better in public, but a large minority are, at least enough to inspire or shame the rest. This is a real problem in Chinese culture. I had an Asian-American girlfriend tell me she had to struggle for over a minute with a purse thief at a bus station in Guangzhou. No one did anything. Afterwards, a guy who watched, came over, gave her his card, and asked for her number. Wow. That just wouldn’t happen in the U.S. , that an unarmed man would be able to wrestle with a woman in front of other grown, healthy men. (sure if he had a gun, maybe so) It would seem like society was falling apart in that case. The reason that arguments about “networks” and “public space” are nonsense is because Chinese books and films still celebrate the man who defends women, who protects the weak, even outside of his network. But then something gets lost when putting the ideal into practice.
And saying these things should not automatically trip the cultural insensitivity alarm. This is a real, documented fact. Read Bo Yang’s book “Ugly Chinese”, or dozens of other commentaries, books, articles, films etc by Chinese people about this issue. Especially you Twinmaster. You just lashed out at Robert without really refuting what he said. Most historians in China and the West support the idea that the Cultural Revolution destroyed a lot of social niceties as “Old Thinking”, and then this was compounded by 1980s and 90s “Black Cat, White Cat” pursuit of wealth at all costs (which did bring needed prosperity). Even the PRC government is trying to address this break down in civility with such measures as elevating Confucianism. Ranting about racism does not change the fact that China, even according to Chinese people, needs to seriously examine it’s social character.
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Where I live I also see Chinese people going out of their way to give up their seats to pregnant women, single mothers and elderly folks.
Robert, you make some good points. You didn’t use the four extremely offensive words that I “put into your mouth”, but your article still represents an insulting and disrespectful view of Chinese men and culture.
Your article, which is actually an opinion piece/editorial, is filled with disparaging generalizations and discourteous language that harshly criticizes an entire country of men. How offensive is that?
There are varying degrees of offensiveness, just as there are varying degrees of racial discrimination, but they are still the same thing.
Would your article be offensive to the Chinese men you think you have the observational powers to judge? Of course they would.
Your Chinese girlfriend or wife loves you, and that was my point exactly. The mothers, wives, families, and friends of the Chinese men you so cavalierly criticize here would NEVER agree with your arguments.
You write generalizations about Chinese men as though you (and your ilk) are above the societal weaknesses and shortcomings that are a natural part of of humanity.
You write, “It seems that Chinese men are too often lost in their own worlds and do not pay attention to what is going on around them.”
This might also describe many of the executives on Wall Street, USA.
You write, “Most Chinese men that I observed are looking out only for themselves and act as if the people around them do not exist.”
This might also describe many of the world’s corrupt political organizations.
You write, “This sense of entitlement on the part of Chinese men is a big problem in China.”
This might also describe the heads of greedy corporations who destroy the planet in the name of profit.
You write, “…produce millions of men who grow up believing that they are the kings of the world.
This might also describe the youths of many Anglo-Saxons.
You write, “…they were never taught how to have good manners by their parents.”
This might also describe the youths of many Westerners.
You write, “…need to stop acting as if they are the only ones who exist in China.”
They ARE the only native men who exist in China, it’s THEIR country!
You write, “So stand up Chinese men and be real men.”
They ARE real men, real CHINESE men.
You say you’re tired of hearing the phrase, “cultural etiquette,” and that having good manners is a matter of paying attention and common sense.
If you were paying attention you’d see what little common sense your article makes.
Which begs the question: How much attention and common sense does it take to spot a superiority complex?
Answer: About as much as it does to write a racially-motivated article like this one.
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As an older female living and working in China, I find that i am often offered a seat on a bus. I take it and thank the person who gave it up to me. If the opportunity or need arises then I offer the seat to said elderly or pregnant woman.
Many Chinese want to do as the West does, so we should continue to show respect to the elderly and pregnant women.
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@Twinmaster,
Believe me when I say that I take the heat for everything that I write good or bad about China. I don’t mind taking the heat. That’s why I approve every single comment on this website providing that it is not spam. However, I do have a right to defend myself as well…
Another definition of the idiom “put words into someone’s mouth” is to “say what you think someone else means.” The fact is, no one has used the terms “ignorant, backward, uncouth and uncivilized) natives” on here which would be offensive.
I may have used strong language to write this article but I certainly did not use offensive language. Offensive language would include the use of racial slurs and dirty words. There is none of that here.
While I have conceded that asking men to give their seats up for every woman that walks by is too much ask, I stand by the rest of what I wrote. And ‘m tired of hearing this word cultural etiquette. Giving your seat to a pregnant woman, elderly person, or small child is not a matter of cultural etiquette. It is a matter of paying attention and common sense.
By the way, you are wrong on your very last point. I do have a very close Chinese family member (who I live with) who encouraged me to write this article. This person has never even been to America but they recognize the problem. Recently, this person had a chance to read the post and did not find it offensive at all…
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Please forgive that last double negative!
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What I wrote wasn’t aimed at any one person, Robert.
I think you’ve got a terrific discussion forum on China here but I think sometimes people go to far.
My reply referred directly to the last one before mine (Jay’s) and to your discussion topic as a whole, which I wholeheartedly disagree with.
I’m not putting words into your mouth, I’m writing my opinions.
One definition of the idiom “put words into someone’s mouth” is to “say what you think someone else should say.”
I’m not saying what I think you should say, I’m saying what I want to say. Neither of my replies here have anything to do with putting words into someone’s mouth.
These are my opinions only.
Yes Robert, I’ve been to China. I live and teach at a Polytechnic institute in Shenzhen, China. I’ve lived in China for over two years.
Of course, in MY OPINION it wouldn’t matter if my answer to your question was yes or no. What matters is seeing this from a deeper perspective. You say you’re writing your observations, and that may be true.
But you’re also writing your opinions of those observations. Your OP includes strong, offensive language such as: “that is no excuse for the selfishness and utter lack of common decency that I witness almost every day on my way to and from work.”
That’s an observation seen through your foreign eyes and then expressed in the form of a very strong opinion.
That’s fine. But you should be able to take the heat.
I’m not challenging you, Robert. My replies here are meant only to delve deeper into the true meaning and consequences of discussion that uses phrases like “utter lack of common decency” to define the cultural etiquette of a country that you, sir, nor your family and loved ones, are most likely not even from.
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@Twinmaster,
Now you are putting words in my mouth. I am writing about what I have observed in China. Have you ever been here before?
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Don’t people break rules and try to be first in most countries?
Unless someone has a PhD in human behavior this kind of culture bashing is really just a snobby gentleman’s game of, “My God, man, look at the ____________ (insert the aristocratic adjective of your choice here, such as ignorant, backward, uncouth and uncivilized) natives!”
Gentlemen, PLEASE!
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China is a great place for people that hate rules Franklin. But the rule-breaking and me-first-ism of China is what turns me off the most.
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If guys gave up their seat, I think the whole civilization would collapse: you cannot have a single HUGE contradiction in what is otherwise a coherent system. In case you have been too busy observing men to pay attention to anything else, basically the rule in China AT ALL TIMES is to “pretend you are blind and no one else exists”. This explains why people stand and have a conversation at the ENTRY TO AN ESCALATOR when it can clearly seen that 10 successive people behind them are having to squeeze around the side to get on. You cannot pretend to be “blind” at all times and then make one exception when you suddenly “have sight”.
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If this article is written for China ex-pats, there’s a shaky point here to be made that men are less polite in public places than women. But, generally, there is no such thing as public good or public etiquette in China, in practice. Especially in terms of women and old people– they are some of the worst culprits of the pushing and shoving.
By your own admission, foreign guys will do the same thing, mainly because they, like the Chinese, do not have any stake in a public good. This is a broader point that you miss.
China is a still a culture made up of a network of relationships not governed by space– so, until you engage someone to change/initiate that relationship, you don’t get people having manners.
In the West, there are certain rules of actions in certain spaces, which are not adhered to in China. This is also why westerners like China so much: it appears to have no rules.
I find the idea of women and politeness much more interesting. In contrast to the idea that Chinese women are more submissive than Western women, I think women in China get away with being much more assertive. In the US, a significant number of women are actually afraid or paranoid about being perceived as a bitch– this prevents them from asserting themselves like men. This is not this case in China. Even more so, feminism in the West has never had the state-sponsored feminism as is the case with China. This is my own point of interest, but I think it goes to the point you were trying to make.
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Jim Reply:
July 12th, 2010 at 7:40 am
Hi Franklin,
I don’t know how long Vance has been in China; however, it is undeniably the case that this is not a single gender issue. It’s a universal: the absence of benevolence as a professor recently admitted to me, the absence of human kindness. In Jung Chang’s Wild Swans she lays this firmly at the door of the revolution – civility and privacy both being deemed reactionary and feudal; I wonder though if there are other drivers.
I just got home from buying my daily soya milk. Normally there is a quite orderly queue. This morning an old woman came and stood, not behind me, but next to me – it was clear was she was about (after six years I’ve witnessed this scores of times). Sure enough, when my turn came in she dashed. I called her on it and then another similarly pathetic scenario played itself out: the total inability of Chinese to be accountable for deficient behaviour. Out came the rationalisation: Oh, I can see you’re not familiar with things, I’ve been waiting all day blah, blah. I shop there every day; here assumption had no basis, plus she’d just arrived. This is one of the most tedious aspects of life here. Courtesy isn’t just some kind of hypocritical carapace with no function: it is essential to the smoothing of human interactions. It’s absence is one of the main drivers for the constant aggravations which can quickly escalate into violence here. Chinese don’t apologise since they never take responsibility since they must always dysfunctionally defend mianzi/face. And that’s just one aspect of the psycho-ward levels of dysfunction.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/cosmicsausage/4760417412/
Jim
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@Twinmaster,
Fair enough. I figured that by writing the article, I was running the risk of being called ‘culturally arrogant’ and condescending. That certainly was not my intention. I was sharing my observations which come from alot of experience here…
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@Jay,
Agreed. Giving your seat to every women who walks by might be asking for too much. I suppose that just seeing people give up their seats for the elderly, ill, pregnant, etc, would be a good start.
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This is a rather naive and preposterous perspective. We’re all foreigners here, guests in a native land, and judging the natives with such biased and preconceived notions of cultural etiquette is about as ungentlemanly as it gets! Balderdash!
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I see no reason why men should defer to women just because they are women. I can wholeheartedly support deferring to the ill, the elderly, the pregnant, and anyone who is weakened. I do defer to women because I was raised in the West but there aren’t so many people in the West. In China, if men defer to women to let them set down on a bus then no man in China will ever set down. Still, I must say that the thing that irritates me most about China is poor public manners that we can all agree on – like waiting in line, spitting and hacking, pushing, etc. But when it comes to sexual equality I’m all for it.
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@J.macklby,
It’s already happening although I must say that most Chinese men that I know are far too shy to actually go up and talk to a girl which means that there are still alot of free girls out there…
@Demerzel,
I guess they want to make sure they do not lose their girlfriends since it’s so hard to get one??? Like J. Macklby said, women are more and more valuable commodities here….
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The irony in Shanghai is that once one of those men have a girlfriend, they literally fall over themselves and do just about anything and everything for their respective girlfriends. I have never seen any other place like the guys in Shanghai pay for and do whatever their ‘zuo’ girlfriends ask for.
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So then, China is raising millions and millions of ‘Little Emperors’ to whom nobody ever said ‘NO!!’, possessed with a vulgar and warped ‘sense of entitlement’. …I does not bode well for China’s future relations with the West.
But what goes around, comes around, so enevitably now, China’s much shorter supply of women will be able to pick and choose and be much more fussy when all these[rude] Chinese men come courting, even to the point of rejecting and humiliating them ‘, en masse,causing millions of Chinese men to ‘lose face’….Then women will be perceived as much more valuable’commodities’….But for masses of Chinese men it will already be too late.
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