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Are There Any Gentlemen in China?
Posted in The Vance Report on 11/28/2008 06:06 pm by Robert Vance
“Aiyaaa!” I exclaimed as a man stepped in front of me recently to take a bus seat that had just been vacated. The seat should have been mine but I wanted to give it to an elderly lady who was standing nearby. I waited for the man to look at me and then I pointed to the elderly woman who was also looking at me. The man’s face turned red and he quickly gave his seat to the appreciative lady.
Unfortunately, I have seen this situation played out again and again in China. It seems that Chinese men are too often lost in their own worlds and do not pay attention to what is going on around them. Hardly a day goes by that I do not witness elderly people, pregnant women, and children standing in front of young men who seem to be oblivious to their presence. If I am lucky enough to be sitting when this situation occurs, I will always jump out of my seat but not before I have waited a few seconds to see if any of the Chinese men on board offer their seats. That never happens.
I have even seen Chinese men shoving women out of the way in lines at train and bus stations. The concept of ‘ladies first’ is virtually non-existent in this country where ’survival-of-the-fittest’ still rules. Most Chinese men that I observed are looking out only for themselves and act as if the people around them do not exist. I have witnessed men allowing doors to slam in women’s faces and jumping in front of women just to be the first to get on a bus. Just a few days ago, I yelled at a group of young men who boldy walked by a long line of people waiting to get on the bus. My admonishment did no good. As soon as the bus doors open, they jumped on and quickly took seats.
Last night, as I made the 45 minute bus trip from my school to my home, I observed that there were far more women standing than men. When a seat opened up, it was almost always a man who rushed to occupy it.
Fortunately, there are gentlemen in China; they are called women. The elderly, pregnant women, and children do have a chance to sit down because Chinese women always jump up and offer their seats to those in need. Compared to Chinese men, Chinese women are much more caring and unselfish. Chinese men act as if it is their right to sit down; they have no concept of ‘being a gentleman.’
This sense of entitlement on the part of Chinese men is a big problem in China. In a country where ‘manhood’ is still highly prized, however, such behavior is not entirely surprising. One child families - where parents and grandparents spoil their children ’silly’ - produce millions of men who grow up believing that they are the kings of the world. After all, even well into their late teenage years, everything is done for them. Their mothers wash their clothes, cook meals for them, and their fathers pay for four years of university - the young men never have to work until the day they step out of the university. Students who I have spoken with on this issue admit to me that they were never taught how to have good manners by their parents. It simply never came up in a conversation.
“Westerns have problems with manners too,” a female Chinese friend reminded me recently. “There is no question, however, that the West could teach our men how to be better gentlemen.” What she said rang true. Just today in my university cafeteria, I watched as two French men cut in front of two dozen students who were waiting in line to pay for their lunch. No one complained. Regardless, I do believe that this problem among Chinese men is much worse than any other country that I have ever visited.
China’s overpopulated environment may promote an attitude of “every man for himself” but that is no excuse for the selfishness and utter lack of common decency that I witness almost every day on my way to and from work. While many such social problems may slowly fade away with China’s continued development, I fear that this particular issue needs special attention. Chinese women need to stop treating the men here like royalty and demand that they ‘wake up’ and pay attention to what is going on around them. Chinese men, for their part, need to stop acting as if they are the only ones who exist in China. China owes a great debt of gratitude to the elderly who have helped to bring China out of those dark years of oppression and starvation. Pregnant women deserve respect and special consideration because they are carrying the bright future of China. The least that men can do is to give these people a ‘lousy’ seat on a bus or train. Maybe someday, Chinese men might be willing to give up their seat for any woman who is standing.
So stand up Chinese men and be real men. Give your seats to those who need them and show us that you can be gentlemen.
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11/29/2008 at 1:20 am
So then, China is raising millions and millions of ‘Little Emperors’ to whom nobody ever said ‘NO!!’, possessed with a vulgar and warped ’sense of entitlement’. …I does not bode well for China’s future relations with the West.
But what goes around, comes around, so enevitably now, China’s much shorter supply of women will be able to pick and choose and be much more fussy when all these[rude] Chinese men come courting, even to the point of rejecting and humiliating them ‘, en masse,causing millions of Chinese men to ‘lose face’….Then women will be perceived as much more valuable’commodities’….But for masses of Chinese men it will already be too late.
11/29/2008 at 2:24 am
The irony in Shanghai is that once one of those men have a girlfriend, they literally fall over themselves and do just about anything and everything for their respective girlfriends. I have never seen any other place like the guys in Shanghai pay for and do whatever their ‘zuo’ girlfriends ask for.
11/29/2008 at 5:52 pm
@J.macklby,
It’s already happening although I must say that most Chinese men that I know are far too shy to actually go up and talk to a girl which means that there are still alot of free girls out there…
@Demerzel,
I guess they want to make sure they do not lose their girlfriends since it’s so hard to get one??? Like J. Macklby said, women are more and more valuable commodities here….
11/30/2008 at 12:14 am
I see no reason why men should defer to women just because they are women. I can wholeheartedly support deferring to the ill, the elderly, the pregnant, and anyone who is weakened. I do defer to women because I was raised in the West but there aren’t so many people in the West. In China, if men defer to women to let them set down on a bus then no man in China will ever set down. Still, I must say that the thing that irritates me most about China is poor public manners that we can all agree on - like waiting in line, spitting and hacking, pushing, etc. But when it comes to sexual equality I’m all for it.
11/30/2008 at 3:56 pm
This is a rather naive and preposterous perspective. We’re all foreigners here, guests in a native land, and judging the natives with such biased and preconceived notions of cultural etiquette is about as ungentlemanly as it gets! Balderdash!
11/30/2008 at 9:27 pm
@Jay,
Agreed. Giving your seat to every women who walks by might be asking for too much. I suppose that just seeing people give up their seats for the elderly, ill, pregnant, etc, would be a good start.
11/30/2008 at 9:28 pm
@Twinmaster,
Fair enough. I figured that by writing the article, I was running the risk of being called ‘culturally arrogant’ and condescending. That certainly was not my intention. I was sharing my observations which come from alot of experience here…
12/01/2008 at 12:44 pm
If this article is written for China ex-pats, there’s a shaky point here to be made that men are less polite in public places than women. But, generally, there is no such thing as public good or public etiquette in China, in practice. Especially in terms of women and old people– they are some of the worst culprits of the pushing and shoving.
By your own admission, foreign guys will do the same thing, mainly because they, like the Chinese, do not have any stake in a public good. This is a broader point that you miss.
China is a still a culture made up of a network of relationships not governed by space– so, until you engage someone to change/initiate that relationship, you don’t get people having manners.
In the West, there are certain rules of actions in certain spaces, which are not adhered to in China. This is also why westerners like China so much: it appears to have no rules.
I find the idea of women and politeness much more interesting. In contrast to the idea that Chinese women are more submissive than Western women, I think women in China get away with being much more assertive. In the US, a significant number of women are actually afraid or paranoid about being perceived as a bitch– this prevents them from asserting themselves like men. This is not this case in China. Even more so, feminism in the West has never had the state-sponsored feminism as is the case with China. This is my own point of interest, but I think it goes to the point you were trying to make.
12/01/2008 at 3:09 pm
If guys gave up their seat, I think the whole civilization would collapse: you cannot have a single HUGE contradiction in what is otherwise a coherent system. In case you have been too busy observing men to pay attention to anything else, basically the rule in China AT ALL TIMES is to “pretend you are blind and no one else exists”. This explains why people stand and have a conversation at the ENTRY TO AN ESCALATOR when it can clearly seen that 10 successive people behind them are having to squeeze around the side to get on. You cannot pretend to be “blind” at all times and then make one exception when you suddenly “have sight”.
12/01/2008 at 11:59 pm
China is a great place for people that hate rules Franklin. But the rule-breaking and me-first-ism of China is what turns me off the most.
12/02/2008 at 1:39 pm
Don’t people break rules and try to be first in most countries?
Unless someone has a PhD in human behavior this kind of culture bashing is really just a snobby gentleman’s game of, “My God, man, look at the ____________ (insert the aristocratic adjective of your choice here, such as ignorant, backward, uncouth and uncivilized) natives!”
Gentlemen, PLEASE!
12/02/2008 at 2:23 pm
@Twinmaster,
Now you are putting words in my mouth. I am writing about what I have observed in China. Have you ever been here before?
12/02/2008 at 4:21 pm
What I wrote wasn’t aimed at any one person, Robert.
I think you’ve got a terrific discussion forum on China here but I think sometimes people go to far.
My reply referred directly to the last one before mine (Jay’s) and to your discussion topic as a whole, which I wholeheartedly disagree with.
I’m not putting words into your mouth, I’m writing my opinions.
One definition of the idiom “put words into someone’s mouth” is to “say what you think someone else should say.”
I’m not saying what I think you should say, I’m saying what I want to say. Neither of my replies here have anything to do with putting words into someone’s mouth.
These are my opinions only.
Yes Robert, I’ve been to China. I live and teach at a Polytechnic institute in Shenzhen, China. I’ve lived in China for over two years.
Of course, in MY OPINION it wouldn’t matter if my answer to your question was yes or no. What matters is seeing this from a deeper perspective. You say you’re writing your observations, and that may be true.
But you’re also writing your opinions of those observations. Your OP includes strong, offensive language such as: “that is no excuse for the selfishness and utter lack of common decency that I witness almost every day on my way to and from work.”
That’s an observation seen through your foreign eyes and then expressed in the form of a very strong opinion.
That’s fine. But you should be able to take the heat.
I’m not challenging you, Robert. My replies here are meant only to delve deeper into the true meaning and consequences of discussion that uses phrases like “utter lack of common decency” to define the cultural etiquette of a country that you, sir, nor your family and loved ones, are most likely not even from.
12/02/2008 at 4:35 pm
Please forgive that last double negative!
12/02/2008 at 4:39 pm
@Twinmaster,
Believe me when I say that I take the heat for everything that I write good or bad about China. I don’t mind taking the heat. That’s why I approve every single comment on this website providing that it is not spam. However, I do have a right to defend myself as well…
Another definition of the idiom “put words into someone’s mouth” is to “say what you think someone else means.” The fact is, no one has used the terms “ignorant, backward, uncouth and uncivilized) natives” on here which would be offensive.
I may have used strong language to write this article but I certainly did not use offensive language. Offensive language would include the use of racial slurs and dirty words. There is none of that here.
While I have conceded that asking men to give their seats up for every woman that walks by is too much ask, I stand by the rest of what I wrote. And ‘m tired of hearing this word cultural etiquette. Giving your seat to a pregnant woman, elderly person, or small child is not a matter of cultural etiquette. It is a matter of paying attention and common sense.
By the way, you are wrong on your very last point. I do have a very close Chinese family member (who I live with) who encouraged me to write this article. This person has never even been to America but they recognize the problem. Recently, this person had a chance to read the post and did not find it offensive at all…
12/02/2008 at 8:11 pm
As an older female living and working in China, I find that i am often offered a seat on a bus. I take it and thank the person who gave it up to me. If the opportunity or need arises then I offer the seat to said elderly or pregnant woman.
Many Chinese want to do as the West does, so we should continue to show respect to the elderly and pregnant women.
12/02/2008 at 11:00 pm
Where I live I also see Chinese people going out of their way to give up their seats to pregnant women, single mothers and elderly folks.
Robert, you make some good points. You didn’t use the four extremely offensive words that I “put into your mouth”, but your article still represents an insulting and disrespectful view of Chinese men and culture.
Your article, which is actually an opinion piece/editorial, is filled with disparaging generalizations and discourteous language that harshly criticizes an entire country of men. How offensive is that?
There are varying degrees of offensiveness, just as there are varying degrees of racial discrimination, but they are still the same thing.
Would your article be offensive to the Chinese men you think you have the observational powers to judge? Of course they would.
Your Chinese girlfriend or wife loves you, and that was my point exactly. The mothers, wives, families, and friends of the Chinese men you so cavalierly criticize here would NEVER agree with your arguments.
You write generalizations about Chinese men as though you (and your ilk) are above the societal weaknesses and shortcomings that are a natural part of of humanity.
You write, “It seems that Chinese men are too often lost in their own worlds and do not pay attention to what is going on around them.”
This might also describe many of the executives on Wall Street, USA.
You write, “Most Chinese men that I observed are looking out only for themselves and act as if the people around them do not exist.”
This might also describe many of the world’s corrupt political organizations.
You write, “This sense of entitlement on the part of Chinese men is a big problem in China.”
This might also describe the heads of greedy corporations who destroy the planet in the name of profit.
You write, “…produce millions of men who grow up believing that they are the kings of the world.
This might also describe the youths of many Anglo-Saxons.
You write, “…they were never taught how to have good manners by their parents.”
This might also describe the youths of many Westerners.
You write, “…need to stop acting as if they are the only ones who exist in China.”
They ARE the only native men who exist in China, it’s THEIR country!
You write, “So stand up Chinese men and be real men.”
They ARE real men, real CHINESE men.
You say you’re tired of hearing the phrase, “cultural etiquette,” and that having good manners is a matter of paying attention and common sense.
If you were paying attention you’d see what little common sense your article makes.
Which begs the question: How much attention and common sense does it take to spot a superiority complex?
Answer: About as much as it does to write a racially-motivated article like this one.
12/03/2008 at 3:28 am
I agree with Robert’s fundamental point. There is a noticeable absence of chivalry in China. I’ve lived there for almost 3 years and am returning soon. I don’t think the majority of Western men are much better in public, but a large minority are, at least enough to inspire or shame the rest. This is a real problem in Chinese culture. I had an Asian-American girlfriend tell me she had to struggle for over a minute with a purse thief at a bus station in Guangzhou. No one did anything. Afterwards, a guy who watched, came over, gave her his card, and asked for her number. Wow. That just wouldn’t happen in the U.S. , that an unarmed man would be able to wrestle with a woman in front of other grown, healthy men. (sure if he had a gun, maybe so) It would seem like society was falling apart in that case. The reason that arguments about “networks” and “public space” are nonsense is because Chinese books and films still celebrate the man who defends women, who protects the weak, even outside of his network. But then something gets lost when putting the ideal into practice.
And saying these things should not automatically trip the cultural insensitivity alarm. This is a real, documented fact. Read Bo Yang’s book “Ugly Chinese”, or dozens of other commentaries, books, articles, films etc by Chinese people about this issue. Especially you Twinmaster. You just lashed out at Robert without really refuting what he said. Most historians in China and the West support the idea that the Cultural Revolution destroyed a lot of social niceties as “Old Thinking”, and then this was compounded by 1980s and 90s “Black Cat, White Cat” pursuit of wealth at all costs (which did bring needed prosperity). Even the PRC government is trying to address this break down in civility with such measures as elevating Confucianism. Ranting about racism does not change the fact that China, even according to Chinese people, needs to seriously examine it’s social character.
12/03/2008 at 4:49 pm
Are you serious Robert? I live in Nanning and have a much more positive view of Chinese men than you. There are some aspects of living in China that I find frustrating (not queuing up is a big one) but have not noticed any difference between the behaviour of men and women. I have on a number of occasions witnessed young chinese men give up their seats for the elderly. I think your criticism is rather harsh…
I’d just like to share something that I really appreciate about Chinese men. In my country, groups of young men will yell out sexist comments to young women on the street to impress their friends. This has never happened to me in China. My impression is that Chinese men are more respectful of women in public. He may cut ahead of you in the queue, but at least he wont make a sleazy, inappropriate comment on the way past. Anyway, these are just my subjective impressions.
12/03/2008 at 9:18 pm
@Josh
Thanks for your post. Unfortunately, what I wrote was not ‘politically correct’ which is why some people have taken such great offense. That’s the great thing about blogging; I don’t have to be politically correct. However, I do entirely reject the implication by others on here that my post was racially motivated. Anyone who has spent time reading other posts on here knows that this is simply not the case. I certainly welcome disagreements…and maybe I was a little too harsh…but hate when people try to discount me as a ‘racially motivated’ writer….
Not only is the Chinese government ‘elevating’ Confucianism’ in China but they are also getting softer on ‘organized’ religion because they realize that religion could actually have a positive effect on society. I strongly believe that the problems I have written about can be solved and that it is not so much an issue with race but rather history…as you suggest…
@Jenny,
I appreciate your insights and respect the fact that you have not had the same experiences. My observations come from time spent in Southern, Central, and Northern China so what I write about is not just from one region. I have discussed this issue at great length with students and friends around here (and not just girls either) who agree that manners are lacking. The Chinese women that I know at least seem to feel the same way as I do. Anyway, I’m glad that you have had a different experience and that you can share that here…
12/04/2008 at 4:46 pm
You assume Chinese men care. They don’t.. They only get red faced when called appon not because they could have been wrong. And we must remember , it is women who teach the boys to think they are the only one who matters in the first place. If there was a tolet seat to be put back down, they would’nt do that eather.
I have 27 years experience in China and happy teaching in Inner-Mongolia I love and admire Chinese people, BUT - there are reasons why the young Chines women are always looking for a Western man !
12/05/2008 at 5:00 am
of course they are many gentlemen in U.S….. there are “gentlemen’s club” in every street corner…. and there are many ladies’ too…. on the stages, like Mary Catherine..
12/05/2008 at 5:06 am
Mary:
Did you get hurt when the not so gentle Chinese men not pay you a fair price? Where are you coming from, young men got their women praganant and then just run off and it is just practical business routine… are you treated differently in China? if you are free at where are you coming from, why are you getting suddenly expensive and respectable for a change, after you are getting old and rusty….
Brits hooligans running amok after drinking all night and start gang fights, of course they are gentlemen…American kids using drugs, and dancing outside the bar and releasing themselves shamelessly, of course they are gentleman… you only get what do you deserve…. understand>?
12/05/2008 at 5:16 am
Bob:
So they are not gentleman for not giving up their seats. Are they running around the world killing women and children and pretend to be “gentlemen.” afterwards…
12/05/2008 at 5:19 am
Of course, your boy emperor, August Buushit would give his seat to all the women around him, and your ever gentle Clinton even will help their ladies by putting his cigar to their ladies’ right place…. With all good “gentlemen” example, no wonder Bob is behaving like what he is doing here….
12/05/2008 at 3:21 pm
Ah yes, history.
History shows that the white man has been using these kinds of arguments to justify his “fundamental points” for the better good of societies and civilizations for a long time.
The majority of Europeans in early America, for example, believed that the native American Indains were savages (akin to being red-faced, lacking manners, needing religion, etc.) all in the name of civility, chivalry and other social niceties.
For some reason, white men have always felt compelled to tame the red and yellow savages, to make them civilized for the better good of society.
I don’t think I need to refute anything. The facts of history refute most of it.
I appreciate the point that there are books, films, articles, and commentaries on the complicated social dillemmas and challenges China faces as an emerging modern nation. I admit I don’t know much about it, but I don’t need to.
I don’t buy into this kind of thinking because in the end, despite all contrivances and camouflages to the contrary, it’s really more about white men feeling superior to other races and cultures than anything else.
China will continue to solve its problems and evolve as a country and a culture without the forked tongues of white men pontificating about them.
And Chinese men? The vast majority are coming along in the social niceties department just fine. Thankfully, white men today no longer have the luxury of trying to wipe them from the planet one well-intentioned social commentary at a time!
12/05/2008 at 4:11 pm
@ Marywhoore,
A few points…
1. Learn some blogging etiquette next time before you post. Making four posts in a row like that is considered spam. Make one post and include all of your points in it otherwise you end up annoying myself and probably everyone else out here.
2. What exactly do you mean by the comment “and there are many ladies’ too…. on the stages, like Mary Catherine…?” How do you know what Mary Catherine or anyone else out here does for a living? If you’re going to bring that kind of thing on here, go somewhere else.
3. Instead of wasting space with your nonsensical comments, why don’t you take a look around this site and see that I have written articles about the shameful ways that foreigners act in China?
4. So you hate America. Big deal. I’ve already seen everything you’ve written a million times. You are boring.
12/07/2008 at 11:36 am
Actually, she[and at least one other person here] are worse than boring, they are ‘tedious’, ie, a BORE. What is the’ definition ‘of a BORE..?….[ a person who tells you more than you want to know or need to know]…..
So, indeed, do not be kind to a BORE….Life is far too short,[ and this website too interesting ] to let BORES invade and wear us down.
12/07/2008 at 7:00 pm
You just told me more than I needed to know, so does that make YOU a bore, too?
Stand up and be real men? That clichéd phrase is about as boring as it gets.
Life is far too short? Talk about trite expressions.
We’re all amateurs here, none of us are better or worse than the next writer.
Again, more condescending words from men with superiority complexes.
One person here writes, “China is raising millions and millions of ‘Little Emperors’.”
That’s a racist statement, How vulgar and warped is that?
The Vance Report ? I’ve checked it out. I think it’s an ambitious and admirable writing project. It’s a bit amateurish (paragraphs are often too long, for example) but the blog is interesting and promising enough.
Great name, by the way, with an intriquing, professional ring to it. This article was far beneath a writer with so much talent and potential going for him
Just another boring opinion, of course!
12/08/2008 at 2:33 am
I’m curious on this. How is that (小皇帝) a racist statement? What about the phrase does it refer to a specific race of people over other nationalities that have had emperors as well?
Would the Mainland Chinese author of the movie then who brought the phrase into use in 1987 be a racist then? Curiously, Baidu does not reference it in anyway racist, but does explain the phrase 小皇帝. Nothing about it on Wikipedia as well.
Now, I’m all for being sensitive to racism, religions, creeds, etc., but I do believe that there is such a thing as being overly politically sensitive to a fault to make the viewpoint of saying a certain statement is racist when it is not.
12/09/2008 at 10:43 pm
I guess Marywhoore felt compeled to attack me as a way of defending not only Chinese men but the entire Chinese race. However to be kind, ‘ to her’ ? and try to understand why she is unable to allow someone else the freedom to have their opinion. I should have clarified myself better by stating, MOST Chinese men that I have observed, and that ‘MANY’ young Chinese women; I have listened to say , they hope to find a Western man as a boyfriend or husband BECAUSE THEY think the Western men are MUCH MORE a gentleman, and treat women nicer than the Chinese men, as a rule. As I stated before, my opinions come from many years of living in China. Which is’nt to say that I have not wittnessed many positive behaviour from the Chinese men as well. Although I am attempting to soften my previous comments I am also ‘comming from a place’ where it is comon daily occurence to see many discusting behavour from the locals. Perhaps because I live in an area, a large area where people find it simply , o.k. to do what they do, sence they have been doing it for a very long time. They also , lack education and exposure to the outside world. This is probably another reason why they ask me to stay , over and over again. Of course I am humbled, to think that there could be anything of value I could assist the locals with , as I only come with suggestions.
12/10/2008 at 2:09 pm
Some interesting responses, here’s my point of view:
Agreed, less a racist statement than a racial or ethnic stereotype, but the comment was still (in context) derogatory in nature.
Yep, I’m being overly sensitive, but I’d NEVER say something like that to one of my Chinese students.
It’s unfair to judge if the remark was racist or racially motivated, but it’s certainly rude.
Movies and other media about the Little Emperor Syndrome are fair game, but so are movies and media about Western capitalism.
It a Chinese man called me a “capitalist pig” he might not be a racist or racially motivated, but I’d say he was rude and probably a little ignorant.
I like the idea of using words like “many” rather than “most” and “some” rather than “all” in this kind of social commentary.
It just seems to make the writing and “reporting” more fair and balanced.
Lastly, I think most and some of us (including me) can help make the world a more tolerant place by softening our opinions and comments now and again.
Yeah, that’s it. A softer, gentler approach to blogging might be the best way to stand up and be a real man!
12/10/2008 at 4:33 pm
@Twinmaster,
I appreciate your sentiments but you need to understand that this is a blog, not a newspaper. People express their opinions on blogs. I am not a journalist so I do not have to adhere to your supposed standard of “fair and balanced.” You seem like the kind of person who wants everyone to hold hands and sing ‘Kumbaayaa’ but that’s not what I do here. I do write a lot of nice things about Chinese culture but I am also not afraid to express my opinion, strong as it may be, now and then.
A “softer, gentler approach to blogging” equals watered down opinions and pure boredom. I am not interested in that at all. Frankly, I don’t think that anyone else out here is interested in that either.
12/21/2008 at 6:29 pm
@Robert
I really agree your point that people should give up their seats for the elderly, ill, pregnant etc. But, why you pay much attention to men not women who you think should do this, don’t you think you make a big discriminate mistake at first? There are someone or many people who will not give up their seat in any country, no matter they are men or women. However, here, you just too concentrate on men, your such perspective of this observation makes me think you that you think men are more important than women. Maybe, you will deny. But I am much appraciate this point that you are subconscious. Because, “men-first -ism ” is also deeply rooted in your mind.
12/21/2008 at 6:38 pm
@Vivian
Nice try but no go. Did you read my article? I give women ‘props’ for doing what men should ALSO be doing. I write that women are the real gentlemen in China.
How does my focusing on men in this situation make you think that I believe that men are more important than women? I don’t get it… Call me what you want but I do believe that if a pregnant woman, elderly person, or ill person boards a bus, men should be the first to jump up and offer a seat. Maybe I went overboard in suggesting that men should give women their seats but at least women shouldn’t have to give up their seats if there were some true gentelmen around.
But maybe you are one of those women who feels offended if a man opens a door for you…
12/22/2008 at 9:55 am
I was joking, RV. Please do try and have a sense of humor here, too.
You’re right, this is your blog. You can write anything you want about Chinese men and Chinese culture.
It must be exhausting for you. You’re a minority here, a guest in a foreign country, and yet you seem to spend much of your time and energy writing about what Chinese men SHOULD be doing.
Again, fine and dandy, judge as you will. But it must feel awful, living your life here and feeling so aggravated and disappointed all the time by the very people and culture you’ve chosen to live and share your life with.
As a minority here, I find it much easier to enjoy my life by gazing upon the natives with a bit more humility and a touch of reverence.
To each his own; but being a minority in a foreign country and having thoughts like “women are the real gentlemen” sounds like a living hell to me.
12/22/2008 at 12:53 pm
@Twinmaster,
You’re the one who needs to try to have a sense of humour about this whole thing because I think you are taking this article (and this website) far too seriously.
You say that I have spend so “much of my time and energy writing about what Chinese men SHOULD be doing?” What? Did I write a book about it? I made one lousy blog post and you make that statement? Come on.
Are minorities not allowed to state their opinions? I guess in that case, the ‘guest’ minorities in America should be told to shut up…
12/22/2008 at 5:29 pm
You’re ranting now, and that’s funny.
The truth always hurts; you’re feeling the sting of truth and yet you still refuse to learn from it. That’s comical in a pathetic sort of way.
Yes, your original ethnocentric editorial WAS lousy, as in mean and contemptible. Sadly, much of what you’ve written in the ensuing battle of opinion has been equally smug and hypocritical.
You’re one callow, arrogant fellow, my American friend!
But it’s Christmas time, and so I’ve decided to give you, as one bullshit artist to another, one last chance to stop telling others what they need to or should do and take full responsibility for the blog YOU started.
12/22/2008 at 6:45 pm
@Robert
I wrote my last comment after I read your article carefully. I know you pointed out some women( not all of them, all right?) in China are gentlemen, just like what I want to say, that is some men ( not all of them) are not gentlemen. Here, I do not mean that I don’t appraciate a man offering seats or opening doors for me, I mean what men can do, we women also can do. U understand? I want to ask you a question: If a pregnant gets on a bus, everybody should do something for her, isn’t it? We cannot just wait or count on others. Of course, in that case, if a man stand up to offer a seat, we may say he is a good guy or gentleman, we appraciate. But if there’re no men to stand up, I think, there’s no need to make you feel so angry that put “special” assessments or criticize. Men should do something for women, but can’t women do something for ourselves rather than take it for granted that ladies go first, or men should offer seats.
12/22/2008 at 7:45 pm
@Twinmaster,
I take full responsibility for every blog post that I write on this website. You seem to have put yourself up on a pedestal as the ‘Truth Master’ and we are all just supposed to nod our heads in agreement.
I accept the fact that people who have commented on this post have different opinions. Not everyone seems to have observed the same things that I have. However, I reject any suggestion by you or anyone else that this post was racially motivated.
You accuse me of judging but yet there you are accusing me of being smug, hypocritical, and ethocentric among other things. Those are pretty arrogant accusations to make based on one post and considering that you have never even met me.
I haven’t quite figured out what your obsession with this post (and website) is. For some reason, you seem to think that my article carries weight in China. Don’t flatter me. I am just a small voice…
12/22/2008 at 10:30 pm
This is cyberspace, where you are what you write. One petty, bigoted voice in the world is all it takes for some people to take a stand.
I’ve met more American men like you than I care to remember. You’ve proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that you are indeed a smug, hypocritical and ethnocentric a**hole. I’m someone with just enough intelligence to be sickened by your ethnocentric bulls**t and more than enough compunction to call you on it.
You’re previous reply, with that “how could you make a statement like that to me” hogwash, was so patheticlly duplicitous I almost felt sorry for you. You’ve been schooled, junior, and while you play a pretty good game of word touché you’re still the biggest loser.
Why? Because you’re the American smart-ass taking that 45-minute bus ride to work and judging Chinese people with undue scorn and ridicule. You’re the cocky and condescending know-it-all who thinks his keen observations of human behavior and notions about what it takes to be a “real” man warrants the kind of presumptuous and contemptuous critique you posted here on this teachers’ website.
Sure, I’ve stood up to your ego trip with some cavalier language of my own, but again, let me repeat, I’M NOT THE JUDGEMENTAL JERK WHO STARTED THIS.
Why am I “obsessed” with this post and the turd who wrote it? Because I refuse to let you get away with it, that’s why. Because I live in China and I respect the ways of my Chinese hosts as something to learn from rather than something to abhor. You and the kind of people who support this kind of culturally abusive and insensitive argument are the same a**holes that make the world a shi**ier place to live.
People like you are the main reason I left American in the first place. Wise guys who think it’s cool to hurt and judge others for their own benefit and for doing the exact same things that they do, and macho ignoramuses who use expressions like “be real men” as though they’re the yardstick from which to measure true manhood.
Give me a break, Mr. Vance. What you wrote is inexcusable and one of the most offensive things I’ve ever read by an American presuming to write about Chinese men and culture. What gives you the right? What gives you the audacity?
It’s a simple answer. I may be a pissed off monomaniac for standing up to you, but you’re the only egomaniacal prick jacking off his superiority complex on the pages of The China Teaching Web.
Your move, s**t for brains.
12/23/2008 at 7:47 am
No doubt then, America has aready said ‘good riddance!’ to Mr. Twinmaster………….What is the definition of a ” Twinmaster”….?
………[.Somebody who doesn't know what he is fighting for, but keeps right on fighting for it.]
12/23/2008 at 11:18 am
@Twinmaster,
That was the post that I was waiting for, my friend. You completely lost it. You became the offensive person that you tried to accuse me of being. You called me offensive names and you used language that should really have you banned from this site.
Now, even if you did have a good argument for why the post that I made was offensive, you have no ground to stand on. Your last post was highly offensive to me and probably to anyone else reading it. That is what I call pure hypocrisy, my friend.
So it’s not ok for me to make an observation about Chinese culture but it’s ok for you to berate me and call me those names?
Just for disclosure sake, I have requested that your name be put on our moderated list which means we will have to review every post you make now. You simply cannot be trusted anymore to keep the discussion here civil.
12/23/2008 at 4:42 pm
@Robert,
Your observation is correct, but not accurately correct. Because you just experienced the short period. And for us, it’s a long period, we have seen the worst case that you may not have seen now.
In the past 30 years, I could see that the trend of being gentlemen is more positive, that means with the economy and education’s development, more and more people are willing to yield seats in the public transportation comparing with the past.
In the past, the bus is the only public transportation in China, in the downtown Shanghai, each bus was crowded as sardine tin and one bus staff at the bus stop had to push passenger (whoever is man or woman, senior or younger) to close the door. Inside the bus, there is no personal space, your feet was the only place you can rely on, sometimes even worse, in that time, people tended to have a seat eagerly to make his/her journey a little bit relaxed. And this kind of bad habit may not be died soon. It takes time to make the change happening.
Comparing with Western sociaty, it’s still long way to go, but I have seen the change. 10 years later, when you take the bus again, I’m sure you could see this change.
I appreciated your action towards that men. I think in this way the sociaty could be improved quickly.
12/23/2008 at 8:44 pm
@Jason,
First, welcome back. It’s been a while. And…Happy New Year in advance.
The scenario that you describe does actually still happen where I live. I agree with you. In that situation, it is hard to imagine anyone even being able to give up their seats.
My observations come from my experiences on less crowded buses.
I think that you know, having spent some time on this website, that I do see and appreciate the improvements that have been made in Chinese society. This country has come a long way and I don’t want to lose sight of that. This is the 30 year anniversary of Deng Xiao Ping’s ‘Open Door’ policy which certainly set China on the right path…I celebrate this year along with the Chinese people.
And yes…you are right. This problem will improve with time and I am willing to wait for that time…
01/04/2009 at 7:02 pm
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