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What the Torch on Mount Everest Means for the Tibetan People
Posted in The Vance Report on 05/03/2008 11:41 am
Hmmm. I wonder what first words the Dalai Lama’s envoy will choose tommorrow when it meets with the Chinese government in Beijing? Could they be to effect of, “do you have to rub your torch in our faces by dragging it through our province and up the tallest mountain in the world which also happens to be in our province?” Probably not. If the meeting gets off on that ’sort of foot’, I’m sure it will be much briefer than even Tenzin Takhla, secretary to the Dalia Lama, predicted. However, there is no question that many Tibetan people are unhappy with the Chinese government’s plan to parade through their province what has become for them a symbol of opression and heartbreak.
I think that the idea of carrying the Olympic Torch to the top of Mount Everest (Qomolangma as it is called in the Tibetan language) was a brilliant idea by the Chinese government. Although the mighty mountain is shared by just Tibet and Nepal, it has been for many years an international symbol of athleticism, bravery, and sacrifice. When I visited Base Camp a few years ago, there were many people from all over the world who were gathered there to admire the majestic peak as well as scale its heights. It is just too bad that the world’s tallest mountain happens to be located in Tibet. Otherwise, carrying the torch to its peak would be a fitting end to the Torch’s long and arduous tour. Unfortunately, if and when the Torch does arrive at the top of Mount Everest, most Tibetans will not view it as a shining beacon to the world. Rather, they will see it as a burning reminder of the Chinese government’s dominance over their land and over their culture. The ascent of the torch will not be a victorious one for the Tibetans; for them it will as if someone raised a flag on the tallest place in their province and shouted, “Tibet is and always has been ours! We establish that assertion again today!” It will be a slap in the face of Tibet.
The world will standby and ‘applaud’ politely. The torch will come down the North slope of the mountain and eventually find itself being adored at the Opening Ceremonies. The Games will and must go on. But what about Tibet? Will the people’s voices be extinguished along with Torch at the end of August? I fear that this will be the case. The Olympics will come and go but the hearts of the Tibetans will continue to ache and by then few in this fickle world will feel their pain.
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05/03/2008 at 1:17 pm
Robert,
Although you admit that Tibet is just a province of China, but you seem forget a important fact that China is a country consisting of 56 ethnic groups: Han as majority anTibetans as one of the many minority groups. Therefore, you can have Han Chinese, Tibetan Chinese, Hui Chinese,…etc. What’s wrong with any Chinese, Han, Tibetan or from any other ethnuc groups, claim that “Tibet was and will always be part of China”? By anology, If any Britains raise a UK flag in Irish soil, a New Yorker raise a flag in Hawii,or any Canadians raise a Canada flag in Quebec, should it be a slap in the face of Irish, Asia minority, or Quebec franch? If that is the case, then should China should use their resource and power to promote independence activities in those countries? As Chinese, we appreciate suggestions and advice of our international friends for improve of China in any aspects, but we will fight any vicious attempts to split our country no matter what is the disguise. Any people who advocate spliting activities are enemy of all Chinese including Hans and Tibetans. We don’t expect our enemy to stop their splitting activities, we only hope they will be brave enough to anounce their true intention and use “human right” as a weapon to attack China.
05/03/2008 at 5:37 pm
Cue nationalist rants stage left . . . . .
05/03/2008 at 8:47 pm
Everybody uses it: http://www.sandisk.com/tothetop/
05/03/2008 at 9:28 pm
Steve Xu,
You’re right. I do admit that Tibet is a province of China. In reality, there are few people who deny China’s sovereignty over Tibet. The Chinese people accuse the Dalai Lama of calling for an indepenent Tibet which is completely untrue. He is calling for a more autonomous Tibet but not an independent Tibet.
What I do not like or accept is how the Chinese government (and its people) try to use a distorted and twisted historical view as an excuse to stamp out(destroy) the culture in Tibet. The uniting of Tibet and China is not because of some link in China’s ancient history;Tibet is now part of China because the Chinese government has ‘recently’ forced their will on the region; The Chinese government has done much more with Tibet than just ‘make it part of the country.’ The government with the aid of the Chinese people has broken its promise that Tibet would be an autonomous region by flooding the province with Han People and goods in an attempt to drown the culture and bring the province in line with the rest of China.
I went to Lhasa for my first time in June, 2006, three days before the first trains started running from Beijing to Lhasa. I left to visit Everest and when I returned a week later, it seemed to me that Lhasa had been transformed. The ancient city was flooded with so many people and there were numerous caravans of Jeeps and vans carrying dignitaries to different parts of the province. I think that this train line between the capital of China and Lhasa was the final ‘nail in the coffin’ for the Tibetan culture.
So no Steven, I am not calling for Tibetan independence. Neither are any Western governments that I know of. I do however, stand by my post, in believing that the Chinese government will use the torch’s ascent up Mount Everest to assert its dominance over the Tibetan people and to remind them once again that Chinese (Han) culture will triumph over Tibetan culture at the end of the day.
This is not a ‘disguised’ attempt to promote Tibet independence. It is a ‘undisguised’ and unabashed attempt to point out that if the Chinese government and the Chinese people truly respect Tibetan culture, they should stop trying to eradicate it by drowning it out with Han culture.
05/06/2008 at 2:40 am
Robert,
The Chinese history should not be fully analyzed with modern country definitions. Same as some other non-western “regions”. If you think “The uniting of Tibet and China is not because of some link in China’s ancient history;Tibet is now part of China because the Chinese government has ‘recently’ forced their will on the region”, then how about the once independent ethic groups in Japan and India? And if you are free, you can have a tour to the Lama Temple Beijing(Yonghegong) in Beijing, or ChengDe in Hebei Province. I just been there a week ago. You can found out the links between central government and the Tibet. Those are the best places to learn or understand Lamaism out of Tibet. And you will find a lot of Han Lamaism practicers there. Highly recommended.
And another point about “culture genocide” or your worries about Tibet culture, China is treated as cut-throat capitalism by a lot of outsiders, if Tibet culture can makes money as it does today, there is no way it will be eliminated. On the contrary, I worry that with so many people interested about Tibet culture, some people will fabricate some non-original stuff.
Culture is evolving, and it’s specially painful for Tibet, to evolve from middle age to internet era. It’s part of Modernization or Westernization. You can not leave Tibet isolated with world, right?
regards
05/06/2008 at 8:16 am
Hi Yonder,
Thank you for your comments. I think you hit the nail ‘right on the head’ when you said that “if Tibet culture makes money as it does today, there is no way it will be eliminated.” The Chinese government does want to keep some aspects of the Tibetan culture alive; especially the parts of the culture that will bring in money to the government. So yes, the Chinese government will keep the temples open in Lhasa. Yes, the government will allow some semblance of Buddhism to exist. It’s about money, Yonder, not about respecting a culture. That is the travesty.
05/06/2008 at 10:45 am
Robert,
Yes, My personally feeling is same when I paid 25yuan tickets at Beijing Lama temple, it’s too expensive. Considering the free tour in National Mall in DC, I would say that the cost is too high here in China. I haven’t been to Tibet yet, but I guess the entrance fee for temples in Tibet are not cheap.
But I don’t think that the government get financial benefit from Tourism income from Tibet. The statics shows that these income can hardly maintain the daily cost of those temples, especially with so many lamas or monks in temples. And I think the government try to use Tourism to promote Tibet economy. And history shows that richer society has less chances to harbor radical religious.
There are a few gold dragons in the ChengDe Lama temples, each made of over one ton of gold, you should check that out some time later, quite amazing.
The religion practiced in Tibet, it can be called either Lamaism or Tantra Buddhism, quite different with the Buddhism practiced by Han, or in Thailand and other counties in East Asia or South East Asia. Tantra Buddhism might be the only Buddhism sect which try to setup a theocracy world, which got worshiped from Adolf Hilter.
The Mahayana Buddhism are quite popular in China, I don’t think government plays role here. Tantra Buddhism is prevail in inner Mongolia and Tibet, and I think the government try to control it, since they have this kind of “living buddha” system. And at least several “living buddha” have different views as your impressions, The 10th Panchan, the No.2 Lama in Tibet was one of them.
The Tantra Buddhism needs reform, and I do think that the right person to do it is DaLai Lama, but only as a spirit leader, not a political leader. I do hope that his buddhism teaching can be performed in Beijing Lama temple again as 50 years ago, and his school can be opened offically as Panchan lama’s teaching school.
with regards
05/06/2008 at 10:42 pm
“And history shows that richer society has less chances to harbor radical religious.”
@yonder:
Assuming that the only problem is religious, then yes, but if the problem is nationalistic/separatist/ethnic issues, then there are a myriad of areas where history has shown this to be false, Northern Ireland as an example.
05/19/2008 at 10:44 am
Not only have the Han people move to Tibet, there there thousands of Tibetans who have left the highlands and move to other parts of China such Beijing and Shanghai.
Why is that when Hans move to Tibet, they are guilty of cultural genocide and when white people move to China to teach English they are ok?
05/19/2008 at 8:17 pm
Yugung said,
“Why is that when Hans move to Tibet, they are guilty of cultural genocide and when white people move to China to teach English they are ok?”
@Yugung,
You need to get your facts straight. The Tibetans are now a minority in their own ‘autonomous’ province thanks to the flood of Han Chinese. Last time I checked, there are still at least ‘a few more’ Han Chinese people than ‘white people’ teaching English in China. Or am I wrong about that? I hope you are just being facetious when you compare what has happened in Tibet to foreigners coming into China to teach English.
I also want to remind you that you called me a ‘moron’ in another post because you thought I suggested that the CCP was responsible for the earthquake somehow. I actually said quite the opposite. I hope you will read my response.
http://www.teachabroadchina.com/chinese-government-earthquake-tibet/
05/19/2008 at 9:32 pm
RV said:You need to get your facts straight. The Tibetans are now a minority in their own ‘autonomous’ province thanks to the flood of Han Chinese.
I certainly think that everybody should get his or her facts straight.
I got my statistic from here:
http://www.npfpc.gov.cn/en/en2008-04/news20080411.htm
Out of a total population of 2.8 millions in the Tibet Autonomous Region (TAR) ethnic Tibetan form 95.3% of the population in 2006.
The population movement in China is multidirectional. This is not unique to Tibet.
Large number of Tibetans have left Tibet and move to other parts of China. I am sure some of you have heard of the singer, Han Hong (Tibetan name: Ingdzinndroma).She is a very popular Tibetan singer and she is all over China.
I can’t think of many countries in the world where people in one part of the country is restricted from moveing to other part of the same country based on the ethnic origin.
I apologise to you and others in this forum for calling you “moron”.
05/19/2008 at 10:29 pm
@Yugung,
Unfortunately, the statistics that you presented in your last post are widely disputed. Based on those statistics, there would only be approx. 140,000 Han Chinese (and other non-Tibetans) living in Tibet. Without even looking at any other information, that number seems ridiculously low especially since we know that the Chinese government has agressively been sending and even sponsoring Han Chinese into the region since the 1950’s. I also want to point out that these statistics come from the Chinese government. Why should we believe them? The government has every reason to make us think that Tibetans are still the majority in Tibet.
Here are a few other sources of information. I realize that these are Western sources but at least you can know that the numbers you stated above are not necessarily fact. I was also only able to come up with limited sources because oddly enough much of the information that I found about population in Tibet is blocked. Coincidence? I think not.
http://www.boston.com/news/world/articles/2006/07/01/westerners_protest_beijing_tibet_rail/ (Scroll down to the bottom)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_treatment_of_Tibetans (Read what the Heritage Foundation has said)
http://www.sunstar.com.ph/static/pam/2008/05/04/oped/malu.gueco.html
There are many more sources that you can check out by doing a simple search on the internet.
The ‘large number of Tibetans’ who have moved to other parts of China are mostly looking better jobs and opportunities and were not sent by their government to try to take over a culture. Han Hong was sent to Beijing by her mother at a young age and probably never would have reached such greatness if it weren’t for the move. The rest of China is richer than Tibet and there are more opportunities. She still had to work hard to get to where she is today. Han Chinese who are moving into Tibet know that they will be treated better there than the ethnic Tibetans and will have a much easier time of making money.
05/19/2008 at 11:00 pm
RV,
I ve looked at all 3 websites.
They calimed that there are now 7 mil Hans in “Tibet”.
“Samdhong Rinpoche, prime minister of the Tibetan government-in-exile, estimates that Tibet has 2.3 million Tibetans, but 7 million Han Chinese — more than 100 times the number China officially gives.”
Do you seriouly believe that Tibet Autonomous Region Can support a population of 10 mil people?
The Wikipaedia’s claim is a little better.
They say there are 7.5 mil Hans in “Tibet”.
Here the “Tibet” refers to TAR +Qinghai+most of western Sichuan and part of Gansu. This is Dalai Lama’s “dream Tibet” made up of 30% of China’s land area.
In all these areas out side TAR, Tibetans were never the only ethnic groups. For centuries all sorts of people settle down along the silk road.
The earthquake area, Wenchuan, for example, was also claimed by the Dalai Lama as part of his dream Tibet. The Dalai Lama made all kinds of rediculous claim and few people in the west question his credibility.
How do you think these websites get their statistics?
05/20/2008 at 10:08 am
Yugung,
You wrote “how do you think these websites get their statistics?” It’s a good question. No one really knows. You can’t trust those statistics just like you can’t trust the government’s statistics.
I do remember when I arrived in Tibet in 2006…three days before the first train was to arrive from Beijing. I made the trip to see Mount Everest and then returned to Lhasa a few days after the train had started running. It was a like a different city…a different feel…so many people…so many processions of cars carrying important dignitaries…it seemed crowded.
We don’t know for sure who is telling the truth about how many Han Chinese live in Tibet but we do know for sure that the Chinese government has been pushing people into that region since the 1950’s. Your comparison of Han Chinese moving to Tibet to Tibetans who resettle in other parts of China simply doesn’t hold water. Why would Han Chinese move to Tibet and face the harsh conditions there (altitude, relative isolation, etc) unless they had some government incentives?
As far as the Dalai Lama’s claims are concerned, there are ‘Tibetan towns’ which are outside of the TAR but certainly have tried to retain the Tibetan culture. In Sichuan and Yunnan for example, there are Tibetan towns that are supposedly off limit to foregners. My question is, have these towns also been overrun by zealous Han Chinese people? If the answer is yes, then the Dalai has got a point…it doesn’t really matter whether or not this ‘cultural genocide’ is taking place just inside of the TAR or also close by. We are talking about a group of people here (the ethnic Tibetans) who just want to be allowed to practice their religion and retain their culture.
05/20/2008 at 7:25 pm
My point is, in any country, it is the government that has the population statistics.
If you don’t believe them at least use some commonsense. Can TAR support a population of 10 mil people? China’s Goverment wouldn’t bother to manupulate those statistics please anybody about Tibet population.
There is no encouragement for people to migrate to Tibet. A Sichuan friend of mine went and work in Tibet. He can’t afford to bring his family because healthcare and education cost so must more for non-residense of Tibet.
You talk about tough life in Tibet, I agree.
Actually there are less Hans living in Tibet today than in the 60s or 70s. Too bad if you choose to believe Dalai Lama’s propaganda. There are also lot’s of Tibetans migrating out of Tibet to other areas of China.
China does the right thing in allowing people to move where they like. There is no point in listening to all the out cry in the west. There is a reason why USA spend millions every year on Radio Free Asia broadcasting Dalai Lama’s propaganda to Tibet. They have geopolitical motives that has nothing to do with real people of Tibet.
Yes, there are lots of tourists in Tibet. That is the economic lifeline in Tibet now.
Don’t forget, Tibet is the 2nd poorest province in China and it needs every tourist dollar it can get.
Macao and Hong Kong has more even more tourists. What’s the problem?
The Tibetan towns in Sichuan has just been opened to tourists just before the earthquake. They are now closed again.
07/03/2008 at 7:25 am
For Yugung: Tibet was never part of China until 1951, when they were FORCED to sign the 17 point agreement.
As you know, the last chinese dynasty was the Qing Dynasty, yet what the chinese refuse to acknowledge, is the fact that the chinese never actually ruled China during this time, it was the Manchu who ruled china, and they most definately did not rule Tibet as well. The Manchu and the Tibetans were on friendly terms, but the Manchu did not rule Tibet, or even try to.
When the Qing Dynasty ended in 1912, Tibet still remained an independent country - right up until 1951.
And I noticed, for all your comments, you never once mention the fact that Tibetans are being killed, as they make their way out of Tibet to India. Why is it the chinese feel the need to express themselves about Tibet, and how supposedly good the Tibetans’ lives are, under the big thumb of the chinese, yet NONE comment about the fact the chinese army are killing Tibetans every day?!!
Yugung, please tell me - what do you think about this? Do you think it’s ok to kill innocent Tibetans who desperately want to leave Tibet? and please don’t insult me, by replying that the chinese army are innocent. They are anything BUT innocent, same goes for the chinese government.
07/03/2008 at 4:50 pm
Tibet was internatinally recognized as a part of China long before 1951.
To illustrate my point lets look at this US State Department document:
September 7, 1995
http://dosfan.lib.uic.edu/ERC/bureaus/eap/950907WiedemannTibet.html
——
The United States considers the Tibet Autonomous Region or TAR
(hereinafter referred to as “Tibet”) as part of the People’s
Republic of China. This longstanding policy is consistent with the
view of the entire international community, including all China’s
neighbors: no country recognizes Tibet as a sovereign state. Moreover,
U.S. acceptance of China’s claim of sovereignty over
Tibet predates the establishment of the People’s Republic of China. In
1942, we told the Nationalist Chinese government then
headquartered in Chongqing (Chungking) that we had “at no time raised
(a) question” over Chinese claims to Tibet.
——-
Since Tibet is a part of China how can China invaded itself in 1951?
Let’s also get a few terminology straight.
Chinese = All the 56 ethnic groups of China, just like “Americans” refers to all the people of USA.
Hans = The majority ethnic group in China just like the whites
Man zhu or Manchus = one of the minority ethnic group in China.
The Manchus Royal Family ruled China for nearly 300 years during which time there were extensive intermarriages. By the time of 1911 Republican revolution most Manchus speak Mandarin and write mandarin. If you visit North Eastern China today you can hardly tell who’s Manchus who’s not Manchu and nobody really cares.
For the sake of winning debate point it was often argued that the Qing dynasty were not Chinese even though numerous treaties were sign by the Qing on behalf of China. Eg Hong Kong was ceded to Britain for example.
Whenever it suit their argument they will twist the facts to suit their argument.
China become the first pure single race country on earth.
07/03/2008 at 5:03 pm
Sara asked very politely: please tell me - what do you think about this? Do you think it’s ok to kill innocent Tibetans who desperately want to leave Tibet? and please don’t insult me, by replying that the chinese army are innocent. They are anything BUT innocent, same goes for the chinese government.
yugung:
It sounded like you already have the answer.
There are about 2,000 illegal border crossing at the Tibet Nepal border. These are illegal. The largest group are students going over to study English in India and most of them return to their family during school holidays. “Desperately trying toleave Tibet” is plain nonsense. There are also smugglers, criminals and pilgrims.
The border guards usually close one eye to these activities and mostly they get away with it. There are shooting incidences like any border in the world.I don’t like it but don’t tell me it doesn’t happen elsewhere. In LA police shoot drivers for speeding.
07/03/2008 at 5:15 pm
sara: The Manchu and the Tibetans were on friendly terms, but the Manchu did not rule Tibet, or even try to.
yugung: Is this fairy tale that u read?
The Qing court spend 1/2 of its budget on the war against the Nepalese invasion in 1790 and in 1792 created a mini-constitution for Tibet which lay down the rules for selection of Dalai Lama and Panchen Lama. Qing ruledTibet very seriously.
07/03/2008 at 11:44 pm
Yugung: No, this isn’t a fairy-tale, the Manchu ruled China during the Qing Dynasty, therefore when the Qing Dynasty ended in 1912, Tibet was still an independent country, so how on earth can the chinese say that Tibet has ALWAYS been part of China? You don’t know your own history!!
And how disgraceful of you to say that those Tibetans desperately trying to leave Tibet is plain nonsense. In the next sentence, you seem quite aware it is happening, but you think it’s ok. It’s typical of the chinese to not want to answer a direct question. If you ask them a direct question, they come back with “well what about the streets of LA, or what about Iraq…” You don’t want to answer any direct questions about China because (a) you can’t really excuse your government’s behaviour (and your own) and (b) you couldn’t care less about the Tibetan people.
You are a disgrace Yugung. and, for the record, Tibetans are NOT smugglers and whatever else bad you want to call them, they are being seriously oppressed by the chinese, and everyone, apart from the chinese, understand completely why they would want to leave Tibet.
You think it’s ok to shoot them down like animals. Shame on you. You’re evil.
07/03/2008 at 11:50 pm
Yugung: You asked me this: Since Tibet is a part of China how can China invaded itself in 1951?
My answer is: Why did China FORCE Tibet to sign the 17 point agreement then? What was the purpose?
You think you know ALL the answers, let’s hear what you have to say about this.
07/03/2008 at 11:53 pm
Forget it Sara, you’ll never get any straight answers from the chinese.
You have to remember they’ve been so brain-washed for so many decades, they don’t know the truth, even when it’s staring at them.
They don’t like to ‘lose face’ - and they would rather lie through their teeth, than tell the truth.
FREE TIBET - CHINA GET OUT OF TIBET.
07/03/2008 at 11:54 pm
And this is for Yugung - what type of monster are you?
07/04/2008 at 8:46 am
To sara:
Don’t get hysterical ok.
Where is the proof that Tibet was and independent Nation until 1911？
It’s no use throwing a fit when you cannot come up with a reasonable answer.
Sara said this:
And how disgraceful of you to say that those Tibetans desperately trying to leave Tibet is plain nonsense. In the next sentence, you seem quite aware it is happening, but you think it’s ok. It’s typical of the chinese to not want to answer a direct question. If you ask them a direct question, they come back with “well what about the streets of LA, or what about Iraq…” You don’t want to answer any direct questions about China because (a) you can’t really excuse your government’s behaviour (and your own) and (b) you couldn’t care less about the Tibetan people.
Yugung:
I have answered your questions directly too bad you don’t get the message.
What China’s border guards did was international norm. Illegal border crossing risk being shot.
Sara:
You are a disgrace Yugung. and, for the record, Tibetans are NOT smugglers and whatever else bad you want to call them, they are being seriously oppressed by the chinese, and everyone, apart from the chinese, understand completely why they would want to leave Tibet.
You think it’s ok to shoot them down like animals. Shame on you. You’re evil.
Yugung
How would a border guard know who’s an infiltrator, who’s a smuggler?
The best way to spot a hypocrite is to compare her criticism of others with the way they conduct themselves.
07/04/2008 at 9:44 am
Sara asked:
Why did China FORCE Tibet to sign the 17 point agreement then? What was the purpose?
Yugung:
Historical background in 1950
1) The government of Qing, the Republic of China government that suceeded Qing in 1911, and the entire world at that time all regarded Tibet as a part of China.
(hope u ve read the State Department document)
2) In 1949 the Main forces of Chiang Kai Shek’s army retreated to Taiwan.
3) In 1950 the Red Army arrived at Eastern Tibet.
4) In October 1950 China entered the Korean War. US and Britain wanted to use the Tibetans as canon fodder against China.
To avoid further blood shed and having to fight in two fronts, Mao proposed a 10 point peace agreement with the local Government to Tibet in which Tibet will be left very much unchanged while the central government took charge of defense and foreign affairs.
The Dalai Lama and his advisers decided to move to Yadung on the Sikkim Border. Their plan was to negotiate with the cental government for further autonomy. If that failed they would cross the border into Sikkim and join the CIA who had promised to fund their operation.
A delegation was sent to Beijing headed by the commander of the local militia, Ngapoi Ngawang Jigmei. By April 1951 the 10 point agreement was expanded to 17 point agreement. A copy was sent to the Dalai Lama at Yadung via India.
The Dalai Lama and his advisers agreed to the 17 point agreement and so, the Dalai Lama returned to Lhasa to welcome the Red Army who arrive in Lhasa in September 1951. Ngapoi Ngawang Jigmei is still alive. He must be 90++ now.
He tells everybody who bother to ask that the agreement was signed in a spirit of good will.
Hope I have answered ur question as directly as possible.
Hope Lenny get educated as well.
07/04/2008 at 10:26 am
Some of you get the idea that when a country’s leader switch from one ethnic group to another its territory must change with it. Thus the argument that when the Qing got overthrown by the Repblicans its territory have to change accordingly.
Applying the same rule to South Africa, did Nelson Mandella not rule the same territory as the pervious white regime?
Or if Obama were elected president of USA will USA dissolved and returned to the natives?
The way to spot a hypocrite is to see if they practice what they preach.
07/04/2008 at 11:10 am
Why is it that when I talk about Tibet I aften mention USA?
The reason is that CIA is the main culprit behing the Dalai Lama’s anti China campaign.
While USA have always recognized Tibet as a part of China, CIA have been chief funder for the Dalai Lama since the Korean war.
Declassified CIA document showed that the Dalai Lama was paid US$180,000 a year for his service to the CIA.
The other country actively engaged in sabotaging China is UK.
These people are very creative. Openly, they say nice things and behind China’s back they are funding all sorts of bogus NGOs to manufacture lies and half truth about China.
07/04/2008 at 11:31 am
Lenny,
Hall mark of a brainwashed person is that:
1) Unable to write a coherent argument with out resorting to spurting slogans such as “free Tibet etc.”
2) Dismiss others as brainwashed to hide one’s own ignorance.
3) Habit of over generalization such as ” Chinese never XXX”
07/04/2008 at 4:45 pm
YUGUNG: Definition of brain-washing (also referred to ‘Stockholm Syndrome’ and should also be referred to ‘China Syndrome’)
(1) Forcible indoctrination, usually political or religious, aimed at destroying a person’s basic convictions and attitudes and replacing them with an alternative set of fixed beliefs.
(2) The application of a concentrated means of persuasion, such as an advertising campaign or repeated suggestion, in order to develop a specific belief or motivation.
[Translation of Chinese (Mandarin) xǐ nǎo : xǐ, to wash + nǎo, brain.]
If the cap fits…..
07/04/2008 at 7:21 pm
CIA involvement: http://www.takhli.org/rjw/tibet.htm
do you think the following Westerner were brainwashed by Chinese government?
http://discussions.pbs.org/viewtopic.pbs?t=68073
Have you read this book which may be fresh to you?
http://books.google.com/books?id=Ujvo4OMT-uAC&pg=PA41&sig=ACfU3U1tilrCv09XjlLZ935LjsVxHmC7yw&vq=%22The+Chinese+worked+tirelessly+and+with+a+sense+of+dedication+and+purpose.+Soon+after+arriving,+they+opened+the+first+primary%22&source=gbs_quotes_r&cad=1_0
Look at the description of following, “those agents were arrested and released after months, they were not mistreated”, Is Wiki also been brainwashed?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1959_Tibetan_uprising
According to western sources, the 1959 uprising did not succeed because it lacked support from the Tibetans. “Even western sources never estimated that more than 20,000 were involved…this does not sound like mass support.” [5] This number might however be underestimated since according to chinese sources, PLA killed 86,000 Tibetans the days after the Dalai Lama’s flight.[6] The CIA officer, Bruce Walker, who oversaw the operations of CIA trained Tibetan agents, was troubled by the hostility from the Tibetans towards his agents: “the radio teams were experiencing major resistance from the population inside Tibet.” [7] The CIA trained Tibetans from 1957 to 1972, in the United States, and parachuted them back into Tibet to organize rebellions against the PLA. But with little support from fellow Tibetans they often fell to the hands of the PLA quickly. In one incident, one agent was immediately reported by his own brother and all three agents in the team were arrested. They were not mistreated. After less than a month of propaganda sessions they were escorted to the Indian border and released. [8]
07/04/2008 at 8:41 pm
http://www.escholarship.org/editions/view?docId=ft2199n7f4;brand=ucpress
http://books.google.com/books?id=Upwq0I-wm7YC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_summary_s&cad=0#PPA884,M1
http://www.case.edu/affil/tibet/currentStaff/goldstein.htm
Have you reviewed all of these websites?
07/04/2008 at 11:02 pm
YUGUNG, I am not getting hysterical, I can assure you - it’s the other way around.
No, you didn’t answer my question properly re. why did Mao force Tibet to sign the 17 point agreement, you merely stated events which led up to that point. So, again, I’m asking you what was the point of the agreement? If Tibet has always been part of China, as the chinese like to think, why bother with an agreement?
Also, shooting and killing innocent people at international borders is NOT common-practice. Let’s say, for argument sake, Tibet has always been of China - well then you’d have to say that China is shooting and killing their own citizens. Correct? The point being that the Chinese are so adamant there is NO human-rights abuse in China, yet they are killing their own people.
Of course, it’s not just the Tibetans who are being killed and oppressed. Falun Gong practitioners, and basically any chinese person who doesn’t agree 100% with the government’s policies, are detained, and imprisoned, for years. FACT.
What do you say to that you ’stinking number 9′? I am referring to you as such, since you seem to be educated, and this is what you would have been labelled as, during the Cultural Revolution.
You seem to have the same distorted mind as Crazy Mao.
07/05/2008 at 3:19 am
YUGUNG: I suggest you read the following letter, written by Wei Jinsheng to Deng Xiao-Ping, from his prison cell. It concerns Tibet and the corruption of the CCP.
It is written both in Chinese and English.
Hopefully, you will learn something about your own history and Tibetan history.
Here’s the link: http://www.weijingsheng.org/doc/cn/23.htm
07/05/2008 at 8:54 am
Sara ask?
No, you didn’t answer my question properly re. why did Mao force Tibet to sign the 17 point agreement, you merely stated events which led up to that point. So, again, I’m asking you what was the point of the agreement? If Tibet has always been part of China, as the chinese like to think, why bother with an agreement?
Yugung:
The 17 point agreement was signed to unite China and avoid further blood shed. The American who was fighting China in Korea wanted to prolong the conflict and make it as bloody as possible. The 17 point agreement lay down the ground rules for for both the central Government and the local government and the Dalai Lama and his adviser accepted it. It is normal for central Government and local Government to sign agreements on a wide range of issues.
Not only the Dalai Lama accepted the 17 point agreement, he even asked to join the Communist party in 1954.
Time Magazine; “Exile;” October 4, 1999; pp. 78,79
Excerpt:
I actually studied Marxist ideology and learned the history of the
Chinese revolution. Once I understood Marxism, my attitude change
completely. I was so attracted to Marxism, I even expressed my wish to
become a Communist Party member —–The Dalai Lama
——————
07/05/2008 at 9:05 am
Sara:
Also, shooting and killing innocent people at international borders is NOT common-practice. Let’s say, for argument sake, Tibet has always been of China - well then you’d have to say that China is shooting and killing their own citizens. Correct? The point being that the Chinese are so adamant there is NO human-rights abuse in China, yet they are killing their own people.
Yugung:
Shooting of innocent people is wrong, but that doesn’t applied to people breaking the Laws eg illegal border crossing. No country is perfect. On a scale of 10 China is at least 6-7. I ve not heard of any Government officials who says that China is perfect.
Everybody agrees that the road ahead is challenging.
07/05/2008 at 9:27 am
sara: Of course, it’s not just the Tibetans who are being killed and oppressed. Falun Gong practitioners, and basically any chinese person who doesn’t agree 100% with the government’s policies, are detained, and imprisoned, for years. FACT.
What do you say to that you ’stinking number 9′? I am referring to you as such, since you seem to be educated, and this is what you would have been labelled as, during the Cultural Revolution.
You seem to have the same distorted mind as Crazy Mao.
yugung:
The Tibetans are not opressed. CIA and their propaganda machines are trying to incite ethnic hatred in China. Radio Free Asia broadcast 11 hours a day to Tibet.
Patriotic citizens from USA and UK are joining the Government is demonizing China. China is just a normal country.
Falun Gong is a cult that has been funded by the CIA too. US channel millions of dollars every year via the friend of FLG to promote the cult to Chinese. Anything that brings misery to China is happiness to Washington.
Cultural Revolution was a long time ago. I don’t see any point is bringing it up.
Who cares if I m “filthy number 9″?
Seriously I think you have a very distorted mind.
07/05/2008 at 9:48 am
Sara: I suggest you read the following letter, written by Wei Jinsheng to Deng Xiao-Ping, from his prison cell. It concerns Tibet and the corruption of the CCP.
It is written both in Chinese and English.
Hopefully, you will learn something about your own history and Tibetan history.
Here’s the link: http://www.weijingsheng.org/doc/cn/23.htm
Yugung:
Wei Jinsheng is just a nut case ok.
This guy doesn’t qualify to be a “filthy number 9″.
The US National Endowment for Democracy (NED which is a front for the CIA) funded a Wei Jinsheng Foundation for him. He made a fool of himself in US.
He was once arrested for speeding and he accused the US police for “fascism”.
He also got into ugly fights with other CIA puppets in US.
Don’t waste time reading his garbage. He is one of the least useful US puppet.
07/05/2008 at 9:48 am
Yugung Said,
Shooting of innocent people is wrong, but that doesn’t applied to people breaking the Laws eg illegal border crossing. No country is perfect.
Robert says:
Hmm. If the CCP has made Tibet such a wonderful place to live, I wonder why so many people are trying to cross the border to Nepal? I cannot believe that you actually think it is OK for soldiers to fire on unarmed people who are doing nothing other than trying to make a better life for themselves. Yes, it’s illegal and yes the Chinese government has the right to try to stop them but killing unarmed civilians is never acceptable! As Sara stated, such brutality is not common practice around the world (except for China’s good friend and ally North Korea which frequently shoots people trying to cross the Tumen River into North Eastern China).
Yugung says,
Falun Gong is a cult that has been funded by the CIA too. US channel millions of dollars every year via the friend of FLG to promote the cult to Chinese. Anything that brings misery to China…
Robert says,
I happen to share your dislike of Falun Gong. I do think that they are a dangerous organization. But I am tired of hearing Chinese people claim that the CIA is involved with everything that goes wrong in China. You have no evidence to back those claims up.
The main problem I have with Falun Gong is that they have given a bad name to Christians in China. The Chinese government uses the Falun Gong situation as an excuse to persecute ‘real’ Christians who just want to practice their faith. Falun Gong and Christianity are two very different entities and should not be confused.
07/05/2008 at 10:37 am
Lenny:
Definition of brain-washing (also referred to ‘Stockholm Syndrome’ and should also be referred to ‘China Syndrome’)
(1) Forcible indoctrination, usually political or religious, aimed at destroying a person’s basic convictions and attitudes and replacing them with an alternative set of fixed beliefs.
(2) The application of a concentrated means of persuasion, such as an advertising campaign or repeated suggestion, in order to develop a specific belief or motivation.
[Translation of Chinese (Mandarin) xǐ nǎo : xǐ, to wash + nǎo, brain.]
Yugung:
Stockholm Syndrome is a very extreme form of indoctrination and is rare.
I ve been label as brainwashed a few 1000s time.
It has become very predictable and I was fascinated by what kind of education/media these people hve to make them so arrogant, so consistently and uniformly ignorant.
I even did some simple research on the subject.
Noam Chomsky wrote about manufacturing of public opinion in the west.
That helps explains a lot of the arrogance and ignorance that I ve encountered all the time and I assure u this is not over generalization
This website is very interesting especially seen in the context of Tibet Propaganda.
http://library.thinkquest.org/C0111500/proptech.htm
Hope it helps you gain some insight about yourself.
07/05/2008 at 10:43 am
“The Chinese government uses the Falun Gong situation as an excuse to persecute ‘real’ Christians who just want to practice their faith. ”
@Robert,
I don’t think Chinese government persecuted ‘real’ Christian. Every year I have seen more and more Church setting up in my surrounding area. More people have joined there and convert into Christian. That’s very popular here. I didn’t hear any persecution story here.
07/05/2008 at 10:52 am
“If the CCP has made Tibet such a wonderful place to live, I wonder why so many people are trying to cross the border to Nepal?”
@Robert,
I think we are unable to give you any satisfied answer since what we said you will not believe.
I suggest you to visit Damsarla or Nepal to see what kind of life there for Tibetan. You may take some interviews with those who crossed the border or those tibetan tourist guide. You have more answers about it.
One thing I can be sure it’s not the reason simply as described by western media or Dalai Lama.
07/05/2008 at 10:58 am
Robert: Hmm. If the CCP has made Tibet such a wonderful place to live, I wonder why so many people are trying to cross the border to Nepal?
Yugung:
The myth that everybody believes in was that people are pouring out of Tibet.
From what I know about these illegal border crossing is that these are mostly students who want to study English in India. They come back during school holidays.
There are infiltrators and smugler as well as pilgrims. They are not victims of persecution that the propaganda want you to believe.
It’s very cold especially during the winter and the border guards hate to come out of their camps. Most of the time people just walk across with out being caught. There are also possibility that bribes are given to secure border crossing. The number is not large about 2000 per year.
07/05/2008 at 11:33 am
Robert says,
I happen to share your dislike of Falun Gong. I do think that they are a dangerous organization. But I am tired of hearing Chinese people claim that the CIA is involved with everything that goes wrong in China. You have no evidence to back those claims up.
Yugung:
When Lee Kuan Yew visited China ?2001, he brought up the issue of religion with President Jiang Zemin.Lee later said that he was convinced after seeing the evidence given by President Jiang that FLG is a political organization with foreign connection.
Given CIA’s tract record are u surprised?
07/05/2008 at 1:01 pm
Jason says,
“I don’t think Chinese government persecuted ‘real’ Christian. Every year I have seen more and more Church setting up in my surrounding area. More people have joined there and convert into Christian. That’s very popular here. I didn’t hear any persecution story here.”
Robert says:
Actually, I have personal experience with how the government in China treats real Christians. You can read about it here.
http://www.teachabroadchina.com/are-christians-still-persecuted-in-china/
I also personally know people who have gotten in trouble with the government for worshipping God. This is one issue that I am very familiar with. The churches that you are talking about are government churches. They have to register with the government and they are closely monitored.
Quite frankly, the CCP fears that religion will replace them as ‘God’ in China so they have to try to contain it. Again though, my point is that many of my friends in China seem to confuse Falun Gong with Christianity….they are very different.
07/05/2008 at 1:14 pm
Yugung says,
“When Lee Kuan Yew visited China ?2001, he brought up the issue of religion with President Jiang Zemin.Lee later said that he was convinced after seeing the evidence given by President Jiang that FLG is a political organization with foreign connection. Given CIA’s tract record are u surprised?”
Robert says:
I realize that Lee Kuan Yew is greatly respected in Asia but what does he have to do with the CIA and Falun Gong? Ok, so he made a state visit to China and Jiang gives him ‘evidence’ that the CIA is involved with Falun Gong? What exactly is this evidence? And so what if Lee agreed with Jiang? Just because he has a Chinese background doesn’t make him an expert on internal affairs in China.
Yugung says,
“From what I know about these illegal border crossing is that these are mostly students who want to study English in India. They come back during school holidays.
There are infiltrators and smugler as well as pilgrims. They are not victims of persecution that the propaganda want you to believe.”
Robert says:
Of course people aren’t pouring out of Tibet. Going to Nepal by foot is a tough journey. But you’re still trying to justify the murder of unarmed civilians who are crossing the border.
And how do you know that there are not victims of persecution trying to flee from China? I think that there is plenty of evidence to suggest that at least some of these people are seeking to flee Tibet for political reaons.
07/05/2008 at 3:55 pm
@Robert,
I have read your articles before. If you are saying the government asked for register and made some rules as persecution, I have no word any more. But for me, persecution means to be sent to prison due to believe in Christian. I wonder what’s real explaination in US about persecution. For me, it’s esaily to link to the christian persecution happpened in the earlier days.
I think China has the right to regulate religion. Under the regulation, you could enjoy your religion. Freedom doesn’t mean anarch. If I were Christian, I don’t think it would have had impact on my praying.
When you said “I also personally know people who have gotten in trouble with the government for worshipping God. ” There must be some reasons behind, not just for worshipping God.
When you said “government churches”, do you mean those Christian there are not the real christian? Jesus will not accept them to heaven? Only the underground chritians are able to go to heaven? Jesus told US citizens about that? Please read more carefully about the bible if Jesus said something like that?
I clearly understand that Christian is a good belief. Falungong is different. But can you guarantee that christian will not sometime involve into polictic issues in China? I have seen that underground church is potential problems.
In 1850s, one guy called “Hongxiuquan”, he accepted the christian. Later he missionized in his homeland, but he changed the christian a little bit, he said he was the second son of God, Jesus is the first one of God. He came to world to save the people as his brother. His “christian” became much faster and one day it’s enough to organize an army, then he attacked the government and occupied the Nanjing and became the “king”. That’s the example in the history.
And Falunggong is the another example. Although the christian itself is good, it is stil possible to be utilized as polictical weapon.
From those perspective, the regulation is necessary.
07/05/2008 at 7:23 pm
YUGUNG, you said: The 17 point agreement was signed to unite China and avoid further blood shed and not only did the Dalai Lama accepted the 17 point agreement, he even asked to join the Communist party in 1954.
Once again Yugung, you are distorting the truth. The Dalai Lama had no choice, but to accept the 17 point agreement, since it had already been signed by one of his ministers, not in Lhasa, but in Kham/Amdo (under duress).
Also, although the Dalai Lama was attracted to Marxism, he was repulsed by Chinese activity in the “liberation” of Tibet.
Like many of us, there are certain elements of Marxism which are attractive, for example, theoreticaly it’s more ethical than capitalism, yet in practice Marxism (Communism) has never proved to be ethical, nor beneficial to the majority of citizens. There is NO ’share the wealth’ or ‘we are all equal’. That’s rubbish.
Which communist country do you know of, that allows its citizens to go where they want, speak freely and have the same standards of living, as those living in non-communist countries?
Why don’t you read Animal Farm by George Orwell - this explains Communism quite simply.
And let me tell you something about your own history:
The renewed assertion of control over Tibet by the Qing government proved so intense that when Chinese troops arrived in Lhasa in 1910, the 13th Dalai Lama fled to India. He returned to Tibet in 1912 when the Chinese withdrew the troops in response to the 1911 revolution in China, and in January 1913 the Dalai Lama declared the independence of Tibet. The declaration was recognized by the British, who were colonizing South Asia, but not by China.
The 14th Dalai Lama, then, inherited his office on the basis of the belief that he was a reincarnation of each of the previous Dalai Lamas.
On October 26, 1951, Chinese troops again entered Lhasa. With the signing of the Sino-Tibetan Treaty, the Dalai Lama attempted to work within the strictures imposed by China, visiting Peking in 1954 and negotiating with Chinese leaders.
The Chinese attempted to use the Panchen Lama, the second spiritual leader, to counteract his influence, but this failed. With the Tibetan uprising in 1959, the Dalai Lama fled to India, where he set up his residence in Dharamsala, Himachal Pradesh.
07/05/2008 at 8:15 pm
YUGUNG: You say:
“From what I know about these illegal border crossing is that these are mostly students who want to study English in India. They come back during school holidays.
There are infiltrators and smugler as well as pilgrims. They are not victims of persecution that the propaganda want you to believe . It’s very cold especially during the winter and the border guards hate to come out of their camps. Most of the time people just walk across with out being caught. There are also possibility that bribes are given to secure border crossing. The number is not large about 2000 per year.
What exactly DO you know, Yugung? Nothing, by the sound of it. The majority of Tibetans crossing the so-called ‘illegal border’ are NOT students who want to study English in India, they are Tibetans of ALL ages, wanting to leave their beloved country since they are fed up of being oppressed by the Chinese.
If, as you say, they are students - why can’t they leave Tibet LEGALLY? Surely if they want to study English in India, they can apply for a visa and leave legally? Why try and leave Tibet illegally and risk being shot at and killed? YOU DON’T MAKE ANY SENSE.
And then you say the others (non-students) are smugglers and infiltrators. You seriously believe this? So, no Tibetan is actually leaving Tibet for political reasons? They love being oppressed, do they? They love the fact they are treated like second-class citizens in their own country. They love the fact they are continually criticised and beaten, because they refuse to denounce the Dalai Lama?
Let’s face it, the Chinese army is under instruction to ’shoot to kill’ any Tibetan wanting to seek a better life out of Tibet.
Finally, you say: Cultural Revolution was a long time ago. I don’t see any point is bringing it up.
The point is, Yugung, the CR is part of your history, like it or not, and yet the Chinese government have made hardly any real progress, in the way they treat their citizens. As Ma Jian stated in his book ‘Beijing Coma’ - “When people are denied access to their history, they lose their ability to make moral judgements. It can lead to a very dangerous situation: the nationalist, anti-western protests at the moment, against the reaction that the West has had to the Olympics torch relay, is a product of that”.
As for your comments re. Wei Jinsheng being a nut-case, this is typical of the Chinese. Anybody who does not agree 100% with the CCP, is referred to as a nut-case, or splittist.
If China DID become the next super-power, God help us all. You are all paranoid beyond belief, single-minded and who knows what havoc you could unleash.
FINALLY, THE DALAI LAMA IS NOT A SPLITTIST. HE IS TIBETAN, NOT CHINESE, SO GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT.
07/05/2008 at 11:15 pm
FOR YUGUNG -
Watch this video and then tell me innocent Tibetans aren’t being killed.
This video CLEARLY shows the chinese army killing Tibetans, as they try and make their way out of Tibet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2ImZlolH08
07/06/2008 at 1:13 am
Jason said,
“When you said “I also personally know people who have gotten in trouble with the government for worshipping God. ” There must be some reasons behind, not just for worshipping God.
When you said “government churches”, do you mean those Christian there are not the real christian? Jesus will not accept them to heaven? Only the underground chritians are able to go to heaven? Jesus told US citizens about that? Please read more carefully about the bible if Jesus said something like that? ”
Robert says,
Jason, you are putting words in my mouth. I never suggested that the people who attend government churches are not real Christians. I was simply pointing out to you that just because you do not OBSERVE persecution taking place does not mean that it is NOT happening. The churches that you know about are government churches so of course you do not know of any persecution. Do you have any connections with the undeground Church in China? Do you really know what is happening?
Jason said,
But can you guarantee that christian will not sometime involve into polictic issues in China? I have seen that underground church is potential problems.
Robert says,
I have talked with a number of people who are involved in the underground church in China and rarely have I ever heard anything about politics mentioned. Yes, of course there may be a few Christians who try to mix their religion with politics, but for the most part, Christians in China just want to have the right to worship God without the governement breathing down their backs. Is this too much to ask? Just because a few Christians here and there have gone astray (mixing politics with religion) does not mean that the Chinese government should decide that all Christian actitives which are not sanctioned by the state are evil.
Since you mentioned the Bible I will tell you that Jesus clearly stated that Christians should be peacemakers and that they should respect their governements. For the most part in China, Christians stay out of politics. They are not political activists.
When you say that you have seen that undeground churches have potential problems what exactly are you talking about? Do you have some personal experience that you can share with us?
07/06/2008 at 9:05 am
Sara;
Once again Yugung, you are distorting the truth. The Dalai Lama had no choice, but to accept the 17 point agreement, since it had already been signed by one of his ministers, not in Lhasa, but in Kham/Amdo (under duress).
Also, although the Dalai Lama was attracted to Marxism, he was repulsed by Chinese activity in the “liberation” of Tibet.
yugung:
At the time of signing of the 17 point agreement the Dalai Lama was at Yadung right next the the Sikkim border. Get a map and look at it. If he and his advisers didn’t like the agreement he could just cross te border and the CIA was ready to fund his operation. He had a choice.
The 17 point agreement was sign in Beijing. Where did you get the idea that it was signed in “Kham/Amdo”? Kham is Kham and Amdo is Amdo. For haven sake look at a map.
The people signing the agreement are still alive. They can testify that the 17 point agreement was signed it in a spirit of goodwill for the sake of national unity.
Nobody force the Dalai Lama to apply for Communist Party membership. He did it himself and in fact he was rejected.
07/06/2008 at 9:09 am
Sara was trying to invent history:
The renewed assertion of control over Tibet by the Qing government proved so intense that when Chinese troops arrived in Lhasa in 1910, the 13th Dalai Lama fled to India. He returned to Tibet in 1912 when the Chinese withdrew the troops in response to the 1911 revolution in China, and in January 1913 the Dalai Lama declared the independence of Tibet. The declaration was recognized by the British, who were colonizing South Asia, but not by China.
Yugong:
Recognized by the British?
Rubbish!
07/06/2008 at 9:29 am
sara:
Which communist country do you know of, that allows its citizens to go where they want, speak freely and have the same standards of living, as those living in non-communist countries?
yugung:
Which country communist ot otherwise allow complete cross border freedom.
Is that the norm?
07/06/2008 at 9:42 am
Sara: Watch this video and then tell me innocent Tibetans aren’t being killed.
This video CLEARLY shows the chinese army killing Tibetans, as they try and make their way out of Tibet.
Yugung:
I do not know the authenticity of the video, It doesn’t prove that they were innocent. Why do you keep saying that they were innocent. What proof have u other than ur overwhelming disire to bash China and gross ignorance.
07/06/2008 at 11:25 am
Sara:
What exactly DO you know, Yugung? Nothing, by the sound of it. The majority of Tibetans crossing the so-called ‘illegal border’ are NOT students who want to study English in India, they are Tibetans of ALL ages, wanting to leave their beloved country since they are fed up of being oppressed by the Chinese.
Yugung:
U want people to believe that Tibet is human hell.
Too many foreigners have live and work in China. China is not perfect but people keep coming in. People don’t get shot at for no reason. Only the most ignorant will believe ur version of Tibet.
Sara:
If, as you say, they are students - why can’t they leave Tibet LEGALLY? Surely if they want to study English in India, they can apply for a visa and leave legally? Why try and leave Tibet illegally and risk being shot at and killed? YOU DON’T MAKE ANY SENSE.
Yugung:
The schools run by the Dalai Lama, funded with CIA money do more than just education.
Sara:
And then you say the others (non-students) are smugglers and infiltrators.
yugung:
Some of them are pilgrims. Read carefully.
Sara:
You seriously believe this? So, no Tibetan is actually leaving Tibet for political reasons?
Yugung:
The infiltrators are politically/financially motivated. The biggest fraction is still the students. Re-read what I wrote.
Sara;
They love being oppressed, do they? They love the fact they are treated like second-class citizens in their own country. They love the fact they are continually criticised and beaten, because they refuse to denounce the Dalai Lama?
Let’s face it, the Chinese army is under instruction to ’shoot to kill’ any Tibetan wanting to seek a better life out of Tibet.
Yugung:
Most of the police and border guards in Tibet are recruited locally. They are ethnic Tibetans. Tibetans are not treated as 2nd class citizen.
The Dalai Lama is on CIA’s payrole. Most of the Tibet propaganda come from organizations funded by the US and Uk government.
sara:
Finally, you say: Cultural Revolution was a long time ago. I don’t see any point is bringing it up.
The point is, Yugung, the CR is part of your history, like it or not, and yet the Chinese government have made hardly any real progress, in the way they treat their citizens. As Ma Jian stated in his book ‘Beijing Coma’ - “When people are denied access to their history, they lose their ability to make moral judgements. It can lead to a very dangerous situation: the nationalist, anti-western protests at the moment, against the reaction that the West has had to the Olympics torch relay, is a product of that”.
Yugung;
Really, i am open to any discussion about Tibetan history or Native Americans history, which ever you choose. The arrogance, and ignorance that you ve displayed is obvious to any intelligent readers.
Sara:
As for your comments re. Wei Jinsheng being a nut-case, this is typical of the Chinese. Anybody who does not agree 100% with the CCP, is referred to as a nut-case, or splittist.
If China DID become the next super-power, God help us all. You are all paranoid beyond belief, single-minded and who knows what havoc you could unleash.
FINALLY, THE DALAI LAMA IS NOT A SPLITTIST. HE IS TIBETAN, NOT CHINESE, SO GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT.
Yugung:
Westreners are more keen on Tibet independence than the Dalai Lama who only ask for Autonomy.
Why are the priests holier than the Pope? It’s because their fear of a strong China and lacking in self confidence, constantly need to bad mouth China to gain self esteem.
Wei Jinsheng is a nut case. NED is wasting American tax money funding him (Wei Jinsheng Foundation funded by NED).
He is not even useful as a puppet.
Am I Paranoid?
Why is USA and UK spending millions of dollars funding all kinds of separatist groups in China.
Even declassified CIA document showed clearly that CIA paid the Dalai Lama for his service. You called that Chinese paranoia? U need to have ur head examined.
07/06/2008 at 11:26 am
@Yugung,
If you are in China, you probably had to go through an anonymous proxy to view this video because it appears to be blocked throughout most of the Mainland. I guess the Chinese government is afraid of that video.
I remember when that video came out. It is not fake. The Chinese government admitted that those shootings did take place but they claimed that the solders were firing in self defense. Obviously, the video shows otherwise.
Look, in terms of them crossing the border illegally, you are right. They are not innocent. They were breaking a law. Does that give China the right to use deadly force against them? Since when is trying to cross a border a crime that is punishable by death? It’s one thing if the Chinese soldiers had arrested the people; it’s quite another to shoot people.
07/06/2008 at 11:41 am
RV:
Of course people aren’t pouring out of Tibet. Going to Nepal by foot is a tough journey. But you’re still trying to justify the murder of unarmed civilians who are crossing the border.
And how do you know that there are not victims of persecution trying to flee from China? I think that there is plenty of evidence to suggest that at least some of these people are seeking to flee Tibet for political reaons.
Yugung;
u and I can perhaps agree on one thing, that the crossing was illegal. What do u expect a border guard (20 something) given order to guard the border to do in such situation? Is it his job to determine that 100% of the population are happy? Nobody likes to see people getting killed but those challenging the Law must know the consequence of their action.
07/06/2008 at 11:56 am
RV:
If you are in China, you probably had to go through an anonymous proxy to view this video because it appears to be blocked throughout most of the Mainland. I guess the Chinese government is afraid of that video.
I remember when that video came out. It is not fake. The Chinese government admitted that those shootings did take place but they claimed that the solders were firing in self defense. Obviously, the video shows otherwise.
Look, in terms of them crossing the border illegally, you are right. They are not innocent. They were breaking a law. Does that give China the right to use deadly force against them? Since when is trying to cross a border a crime that is punishable by death? It’s one thing if the Chinese soldiers had arrested the people; it’s quite another to shoot people.
Yugung:
Those video have been around since ?2006.
Can’t remember where i saw it.
When there are sensitive areas where guards have order to shoot. This is not the same as death penalty
07/06/2008 at 12:43 pm
“When you say that you have seen that undeground churches have potential problems what exactly are you talking about? Do you have some personal experience that you can share with us?”
@Robert,
My question is why they need to be underground? They could do religion legally with registration. You have been lots of underground churchs and knows they have none related to politics. But how does government know about that? Does government have the right to know about it? You accepted that there are some people who does want to mix the politic with the belief, that means there are some potential problems existing.
I know Jesus told his believer to be peacekeeper. But from the history, did Jesus’s words really obey by his followers?
10 times Crusade, did Jesus tell them to declare the war? Is it peaceful?
America civil war? Both sides are christian, why both of Jesus’s brothers and sisters fought against each other. is it peaceful?
There were lots of war at the name of God. Is it right?
Why? It’s not because Jesus told them to be peaceful, it could be peaceful foreever. It’s because there are someone who utilize the name of Jesus to reach him own aim. And such kind of people is still existent.
The bible can be explained into different versions according to different sect. That’s why we could see Catholic, christianetc.
To those underground christian, the best way is to register in the government and become legal. Obey the law first, then conduct religion. Remeber underground is illegal, they violate the law first, government has the right to terminate it.
(Why do western sociaty so hateful of communism? Look at the heaven that Jesus provided for human beings. Is there anything different from what is described in communism definition? That’s the place where christians are eager for their eternal life.
Communism can hardly be implemented in the real world is because the people’s nature drawback (or original sin) which is difficult to be overcome.
It could be implemented easily in the heaven because none of us could be seen it when he is alive in the real world.)
07/06/2008 at 12:57 pm
Following is from M.A.Jones(perhaps it can provide some answers to Sara or others)
Link: http://discussions.pbs.org/viewtopic.pbs?t=68073
Yes cctang, I agree entirely. That’s why, in fact, the overwhelming majority of Tibetans who enter India as so-called “refugees” are young. For example, according to figures cited in the Tibet Bulletin of May-June 2005, children under 13 made up 20.58% of the total number of Tibetan refugees who entered India between the months of January to August, 2004. Those aged between 14-25 made up 40.23% of the total - so 61.21% were aged 25 or under.
As noted by P. Klieger et.al, in a study titled “Tourism, Politics and Relocation in Tibet”, published in the December 31, 1988 edition of Cultural Survival Quarterly, many exiles, even back then, returned frequently on temporary trips “without renouncing their status as refugees or as patriots.” Among the motivations for returning to Tibet, which were based on interviews with many young Tibetans in south Asia and Nepal, “were (1) to reaffirm their identity as Tibetans by visiting their homeland and (2) to make money as individual entrepreneurs, tour guides, ‘culture brokers’ and tradespeople in the booming foreign tourist market….Being largely adept in English and the history of Tibet according to the Tibetan government-in-exile” made them “eminently qualified for these tasks. Returning refugees, indeed, became native agents who could successfully compete with the Chinese in the development of tourism in Tibet, serving as an alternative to the Chinese historical propaganda aimed at these foreign visitors. Working in the tourist trade in Tibet, then, became not only an economic activity but an act of patriotism as well.”
Those older, poorer Tibetans who face few promising economic prospects in their homeland, are happy to agree to send their children to India for a free education on the promise that their children will return better equipped to make a living. The Indian journalist Mohammed Ahmedullah has interviewed many Tibetan refugees: “Some of the escaped Tibetans I spoke with,” he reported, “gave me the impression that their escape had been financed by someone else - perhaps the government-in-exile. Otherwise, how could poor peasants who earn less than a dollar a day raise the $150-250 it costs to pay for their escape?” he wrote in an article for the March-April 2000 edition of the Atomic Scientists.
So, we can see now roughly how it all works. As Klieger notes, “approximately 100,000 Tibetan refugees in India and Nepal have received nearly three decades of financial support from the West to maintain their institutions and identity in exile. Refugees have tended to accommodate this outside support within a traditional patron-client relationship (mchod-yon) that historically defined not only the responsibility of the Buddhist laity to maintain and protect the monasteries, but the ideal relationship between the ecclesiastic Tibetan state and the outside world as well. At the highest level, this outside support also defined the relationship between Tibet and the Chinese Empire during much of the Mongol and Manchu periods.”
So the West, as Klieger point outs, through the agency of foreign aid, “has become the new ‘patron’ of the Tibetan government-in-exile. Although donors probably did not intend for this modern humanitarian aid to fuel Tibetan nationalism, because it is coextensive with the traditional practice of patronage, exile institutions and individual refugees have largely interpreted it as such.”
You can see where I’m leading to here. In her study titled “The Problem with ‘Rich Refugees’ Sponsorship, Capital, and the Informal Economy of Tibetan Refugees” (published in Modern Asian Studies, 2006), Audrey Prost, of the Department of Anthropology, University College London, points out that “the Tibetan refugees in India have found employment in a number of different economic sectors, among them agriculture, trade and tourism. Dharamsala’s population is mostly employed in public services (the government sector) and private business, and by Tibetan standards constitutes a rather elite segment within the refugee community. Although the Tibetan government’s census reports low unemployment in Dharamsala, many exile Tibetans are employed part-time or on salaries that barely enable them to meet the costs of daily life. Some surveys have even reported as much as 80% unemployment among Tibetan youths. Many of Dharamsala’s families are living on the threshold of poverty despite being reported as employed, and are dependent on external funds to provide education for their children. This under-reported poverty is implicated in the growth of informal economies of exchange and reciprocity, such as sponsorship (rogs ram).
“The majority of Tibetan exile families in Dharamsala,” adds Prost, “receive some form of rogs ram for their children to see them through primary and secondary education, after which studies have to be financed either by the family, or again by foreign sponsors. Most newly arrived refugees I have spoken to argued that the term rogs ram is specific to exile and to the relationship which foreigners foster with Tibetan refugees either individually, or through a fundraising organ.”
Prost’s observations are supported by those of Klieger’s, who writes: “Western tourists visiting such large refugee settlements as Dharamsala in northern India and Kathmandu in Nepal are often considered as potential ‘bestowers of gifts,’ in the traditional patron-client categorisation system. Deliberately maintaining refugee status in exile rather than assimilating into the host society is an ideal usually equated with patriotism in diaspora communities. Tibetan exiles have political incentives to retain legal refugee status in south Asia.”
They quite clearly also have financial incentives to retain their legal refugee status. In order to maintain sympathy and financial support from Western patrons, the Tibetan Government in Exile needs to maintain a constant influx of arriving “refugees”. Financing journeys is but one incentive used to entice poor Tibetans to make the journey to India. The promise of providing their children with an education is another, as it the promise to provide religious blessings from the Dalai Lama himself.
The Tibetan Goverment in Exile and their supporters rarely mention the fact that so many refugees return to find employment, or that various incentives are offered in order to entice or to facilitate such journeys. Instead, for obvious reasons, they choose to present to the world a rather different narrative.
I have no doubt that many of the Tibetan refugees now living in India are genuine, that there are indeed those who have experienced real persecution at the hands of Chinese authorities. Many, I know, have indeed suffered terribly under Chinese rule, and have had good reason to escape. The traumas that some Tibetan refugees have suffered under Chinese rule have been verified by psychological assessments, and are hardly deniable.
But this is simply not the case with the majority.
Finally, I should add to this too, the fact that the Tibetan Government in Exile is by no means the only party with a financial incentive in bringing over large numbers of refugees. As Ed Douglas reported in The Guardian of October 28, 2002, an entire industry of smugglers exist to guide groups across the Himalayas during the winter season, when border patrols are less active. “Palkyi, 16, claimed she had paid $700 (£370) to smugglers who guide groups over the Himalaya mountains,” reported Douglas.
And the nun that was fairly recently shot dead by an over-zealous Chinese border patrol guard whilst making the trek to Nepal was a typical Tibetan “refugee”, in that she was young and motivated by the prospect of an education. According to The Guardian, she was aged 17, and was “shot in the back by Chinese border guards as they tried to stop a group of 73 refugees crossing the Nangpa La, a 5,800 metre pass 15 miles west of Everest, to Nepal…The nun was Kelsang Namtso from Nagchu prefecture, the only daughter in a family of six. Like many Tibetans, she had no access to education and planned to study at the Dolma Ling nunnery in India.” And like most of these young people, she was “sold” the dream of being able to gain a great education in India by profiteers. As Daniel Pepper, of The Christian Science Monitor reported in the October 25, 2006 edition, the nun in question, Kelsang Namtso, “managed to save nearly $1,400 for the arduous journey through the Himalayas. Half would go to the smugglers.”
The cowardly murder of this young woman is of course inexcusable, and the person or persons responsible ought to be held accountable for their behaviour. Sadly, such occurances are thought to occur almost yearly, which is probably true. It’s just that in this case, the word got out, along with video footage.
Still, this doesn’t change the fact that the majority of Tibetans who make this journey do so for educational and spiritual reasons, not because they supposedly face systematic human rights abuses under Chinese governance. As further evidence in support of cctang’s case, Daniel Pepper, of The Christian Science Monitor, also noted that “the estimated 2,500 to 4,000 Tibetans who try to reach India every year via Nepal, pay smugglers to bring them to India because obtaining the official travel permits and a passport can be too difficult. Most come seeking an audience with the spiritual leader of Tibetan Buddhism, who resides in Dharamsala, in northern India.”
Pepper then backs up his statement with the following qualitative evidence:
“‘Our aim only is to get the blessing of His Holiness the Dalai Lama,’ says Ms. Wangmo, one of the nuns. ‘We were planning to go back afterwards, but now it won’t be possible after the trouble in the pass. If we go back to Tibet, the Chinese will definitely arrest us.’ The nun killed was typical of the many Tibetan refugees who make the journey: she was poor, young, and religiously motivated. At least half of those making the journey from Tibet are children, sent by parents who want their children to grow up with a strong Tibetan identity and who often cannot afford school fees at home. Among the group of Tibetans that just arrived in India, the youngest was a 7-year-old girl, Deki Pantso, who came without her parents.” [emphasis added is mine]
I rest my case.
M.A.Jones
Hangzhou
Last edited by M.A.Jones on Sat Jan 13, 2007 12:00 am; edited 11 times in total
07/07/2008 at 9:10 pm
[...] is of course still much work to be done. Forced abortions, persecution against Christians, and the treatment of Tibetans are among the issues that are still of great concern to human rights advocates worldwide. [...]
07/08/2008 at 12:17 am
YUGUNG: You said:
At the time of signing of the 17 point agreement the Dalai Lama was at Yadung right next the the Sikkim border. Get a map and look at it. If he and his advisers didn’t like the agreement he could just cross te border and the CIA was ready to fund his operation. He had a choice.
The 17 point agreement was sign in Beijing. Where did you get the idea that it was signed in “Kham/Amdo”? Kham is Kham and Amdo is Amdo. For haven sake look at a map.
The people signing the agreement are still alive. They can testify that the 17 point agreement was signed it in a spirit of goodwill for the sake of national unity.
Nobody force the Dalai Lama to apply for Communist Party membership. He did it himself and in fact he was rejected.
NOW READ THE TRUTH YUGUNG:
Invasion and illegal annexation of Tibet: 1949-1951
After the military invasion of Tibet had started and the small Tibetan army was defeated, the PRC imposed a treaty on the Tibetan Government under the terms of which Tibet was declared to be a part of China, albeit enjoying a large degree of autonomy.
In the White Paper, China claims this treaty was entered into entirely voluntarily by the Tibetan Government, and that the Dalai Lama, his Government and the Tibetan people as a whole welcomed it.
The facts show a very different story, leading to the conclusion that the so-called “17 Point Agreement for the Peaceful Liberation of Tibet” was never validly concluded and was rejected by Tibetans. The Dalai Lama stated Tibetan Prime Minister Lukhangwa as having told Chinese General Zhang Jin-wu in 1952:
“It was absurd to refer to the terms of the Seventeen-Point Agreement. Our people did not accept the agreement and the Chinese themselves had repeatedly broken the terms of it. Their army was still in occupation of eastern Tibet; the area had not been returned to the government of Tibet, as it should have been”. [My Land and My People, Dalai Lama, New York, Fourth Edition, 1992, p.95]
Diplomatic activity and military threats:
Soon after the Communist victory against the Guomindang and the founding of the PRC on 1 October 1949, Radio Beijing began to announce that “the People’s Liberation Army must liberate all Chinese territories, including Tibet, Xinjiang, Hainan and Taiwan.”
Partly in response to this threat, and in order to resolve long-standing border disputes with China, the Foreign Office of the Tibetan Government, on 2 November 1949, wrote to Mao Zedong proposing negotiations to settle all territorial disputes. Copies of this letter were sent to the Governments of India, Great Britain and the United States.
Although these three Governments considered the spread of Communism to be a threat to the stability of South Asia, they advised the Tibetan Government to enter into direct negotiations with Chinese Government as any other course of action might provoke military retaliation.
The Tibetan Government decided to send two senior officials, Tsepon Shakabpa and Tsechag Thubten Gyalpo, to negotiate with representatives of the PRC in a third country, possibly the USSR, Singapore or Hong Kong. These officials were to take up with the Chinese Government the content of the Tibetan Foreign Office’s letter to Chairman Mao Zedong and the threatening Chinese radio announcements still being made about an imminent “liberation of Tibet”; they were to secure an assurance that the territorial integrity of Tibet would not be violated and to state that Tibet would not tolerate interference.
When the Tibetan delegates in Delhi applied for visas to Hong Kong, the Chinese told them that their new Ambassador to India was due to arrive in the capital shortly and that negotiations should be opened through him.
In the course of negotiations, the Chinese Ambassador, Yuan Zhong-xian, demanded that the Tibetan delegation accept a Two- point Proposal: i) Tibetan national defence will be handled by China; and ii) Tibet should be recognised as a part of China.
They were then to proceed to China in confirmation of the agreement. On being informed of the Chinese demands, the Tibetan Government instructed its delegates to reject the proposal. So negotiations were suspended.
On 7 October 1950, 40,000 Chinese troops under Political Commissar, Wang Qiemi, attacked Eastern Tibet’s provincial capital of Chamdo, from eight directions. The small Tibetan force, consisting of 8,000 troops and militia, were defeated. After two days, Chamdo was taken and Kalon (Minister) Ngapo Ngawang Jigme, the Regional Governor, was captured. Over 4,000 Tibetan fighters were killed.
The Chinese aggression came as a rude shock to India. In a sharp note to Beijing on 26 October 1950, the Indian Foreign Ministry wrote:
“Now that the invasion of Tibet has been ordered by Chinese government, peaceful negotiations can hardly be synchronized with it and there naturally will be fear on the part of Tibetans that negotiations will be under duress. In the present context of world events, invasion by Chinese troops of Tibet cannot but be regarded as deplorable and in the considered judgement of the Government of India, not in the interest of China or peace”.
A number of countries, including the United States and Britain, expressed their support for the Indian position.
The Tibetan National Assembly convened an emergency session in November 1950 at which it requested the Dalai Lama, only 16 at that time, to assume full authority as Head of State. The Dalai Lama was then requested to leave Lhasa for Dromo, near the Indian border, so that he would be out of personal danger.At the same time the Tibetan Foreign Office issued the following statement:
“Tibet is united as one man behind the Dalai Lama who has taken over full powers. … We have appealed to the world for peaceful intervention in (the face of this) clear case of unprovoked aggression”.
The Tibetan Government also wrote to the Secretary General of the United Nations on 7 November 1950, appealing for the world body’s intervention. The letter said, in part:
“Tibet recognises that it is in no position to resist the Chinese advance. It is thus that it agreed to negotiate on friendly terms with the Chinese Government. …Though there is little hope that a nation dedicated to peace will be able to resist the brutal effort of men trained to war, we understand that the United Nations has decided to stop aggression wherever it takes place”.
On 17 November 1950, El Salvador formally asked that the aggression against Tibet be put on the General Assembly agenda. However, the issue was not discussed in the UN General Assembly at the suggestion of the Indian delegation who asserted that a peaceful solution which is mutually advantageous to Tibet, India and China could be reached between the parties concerned.
A second letter by the Tibetan delegation to the United Nations on 8 December 1950 did not change the situation.
Faced with the military occupation of Eastern and Northern Tibet, the defeat and destruction of its small army, the advance of tens of thousands of more PLA troops into Central Tibet, and the lack of active support from the international community, the Dalai Lama and the Tibetan Government decided to send a delegation to Beijing for negotiations with the new Chinese leadership.
“Seventeen-Point Agreement”
In April 1951, the Tibetan Government sent a five-member delegation to Beijing, led by Kalon Ngapo Ngawang Jigme. The Tibetan Government authorised its delegation to put forward the Tibetan stand and listen to the Chinese position. But, contrary to the claim made in the White Paper that the delegation had “full powers,” it was expressly not given the plenipotentiary authority to conclude an agreement. In fact, it was instructed to refer all important matters to the Government.
On 29 April negotiations opened with the presentation of a draft agreement by the leader of the Chinese delegation. The Tibetan delegation rejected the Chinese proposal in toto, after which the Chinese tabled a modified draft that was equally unacceptable to the Tibetan delegation.
At this point, the Chinese delegates, Li Weihan and Zhang Jin-wu, made it plain that the terms, as they now stood, were final and amounted to an ultimatum. The Tibetan delegation was addressed in harsh and insulting terms, threatened with physical violence, and members were virtually kept prisoners.
No further discussion was permitted, and, contrary to Chinese claims, the Tibetan delegation was prevented from contacting its Government for instructions. It was given the onerous choice of either signing the “Agreement” on its own authority or accepting responsibility for an immediate military advance on Lhasa.
Under immense Chinese pressure the Tibetan delegation signed the “Agreement of the Central People’s Government and the Local Government of Tibet on Measures for the Peaceful Liberation of Tibet” on 23 May 1951, without being able to inform the Tibetan Government.
The delegation warned the Chinese that they were signing only in their personal capacity and had no authority to bind either the Dalai Lama or the Tibetan Government to the “Agreement”.
None of this posed an obstacle to the Chinese Government to proceed with a signing ceremony and to announce to the world that an “agreement” had been concluded for the “peaceful liberation of Tibet”.
Even the seals affixed to the document were forged by the Chinese Government to give it the necessary semblance of authenticity.
The seventeen clauses of the “Agreement”, among other things, authorised the entry into Tibet of Chinese forces and empowered the Chinese Government to handle Tibet’s external affairs. On the other hand, it guaranteed that China would not alter the existing political system in Tibet and not interfere with the established status, function, and powers of the Dalai Lama or the Panchen Lama.
The Tibetan people were to have regional autonomy, and their religious beliefs and customs were to be respected. Internal reforms in Tibet would be effected after consultation with leading Tibetans and without compulsion.
The full text of what came to be known as the “Seventeen-Point Agreement” was broadcast by Radio Beijing on 27 May 1951. This was the first time the Dalai Lama and the Tibetan Government heard of the devastating document. The reaction in Dromo (where the Dalai Lama was staying at that time) and Lhasa was one of shock and disbelief.
A message was immediately sent to the delegation in Beijing, reprimanding them for signing the “Agreement” without consulting the Government for instructions. The delegation was asked to send the text of the document they had signed, and wait in Beijing for further instructions.
In the meantime, a telegraphic message was received from the delegation to say that the Chinese Government representative, General Zhang Jin-wu, was already on his way to Dromo, via India. It added that some of the delegation members were returning, via India, and the leader of the delegation was returning directly to Lhasa.
The Dalai Lama and the Tibetan Government withheld the public repudiation of the “Agreement”. The Dalai Lama returned to Lhasa on 17 August 1951 in the hope of re-negotiating a more favourable treaty with the Chinese.
On 9 September 1951, around 3,000 Chinese troops marched into Lhasa, soon followed by some 20,000 more, from eastern Tibet and from Eastern Turkestan (Xinjiang) in the north. The PLA occupied the principal cities of Ruthok and Gartok, and then Gyangtse and Shigatse.
With the occupation of all the major cities of Tibet, including Lhasa, and large concentration of troops throughout eastern and western Tibet, the military control of Tibet was virtually complete. From this position, China refused to re-open negotiations and the Dalai Lama had effectively lost the ability to either accept or reject any Tibet-China agreement.
However, on the first occasion he had of expressing himself freely again, which came only on 20 June 1959, after his flight to India, the Dalai Lama formally repudiated the “Seventeen-Point Agreement”, as having been “thrust upon Tibetan Government and people by the threat of arms”.
In assessing the “17-Point Agreement on Measures for the Peaceful Liberation of Tibet” and the occupation of Tibet two factors are crucial. First, the extent to which China was violating international law when the PLA marched into Tibet, and second, the effect of the signing of the “Agreement”.
The law governing treaties is based on the universally recognised principle that the foundation of conventional obligations is the free and mutual consent of contracting parties and, conversely, that freedom of consent is essential to the validity of an agreement.
Treaties brought about by the threat or the use of force lack legal validity, particularly if the coercion is applied to the country and government in question rather than only on the negotiators themselves.
With China occupying large portions of Tibet and openly threatening a full military advance to Lhasa unless the treaty was signed, the “agreement” was invalid ab initio, meaning that it could not even be validated by a later act of acquiescence by the Tibetan Government.
Contrary to China’s claim in its White Paper, the Dalai Lama and the Tibetan Government did not act voluntarily in signing the “Agreement”.
IN FACT, MAO ZEDONG himself, in the Directive of Central Committee of CPC on the Policies for our Work in Tibet, issued on 6 April 1952, ADMITTED:
“Not only the two Silons (i.e., prime ministers) but also the Dalai and most of his clique were reluctant to accept the Agreement and are unwilling to carry it out. … As yet we do not have a material base for fully implementing the agreement, nor do we have a base for this purpose in terms of support among the masses or in the upper stratum”. [Selected Works of Mao Tsetung, Vol. 5, Foreign Language Press, Peking, 1977, p.75]
Your comments Yugung?
07/08/2008 at 6:36 am
Is YUGUNG for real?
How can he/she say that MOST Tibetans going to India are students, and they return during the school holidays?
What does Yugung think that these ’students’ say to the chinese border guards upon their return, during the school holidays?
“Hi there, I crossed the border going out of Tibet illegally, but hey, I’m back now for the school holidays, and when the school term starts again, I’ll be back, trying to cross the border into India illegally again. See ya.”
I think this Yugung character has some serious issues…..
07/08/2008 at 5:53 pm
YUGUNG, you said:
The 17 point agreement was signed to unite China and avoid further blood shed.
You really believe this? Have you ever read the 17 point agreement? Where does it say, directly or indirectly, that signing it was to avoid further blood-shed?
Did you know that even the seals affixed to the document (agreement) were forged by the Chinese Government to give it the necessary semblance of authenticity?
What do you say about that? Or are you going to somehow connect it to the CIA again?
17 POINT AGREEMENT
1. The Tibetan people shall be united and drive out the imperialist aggressive forces from Tibet; that the Tibetan people shall return to the big family of the motherland - the People’s Republic of China.
2. The Local Government of Tibet shall actively assist the People’s Liberation Army to enter Tibet and consolidate the national defenses.
3. In accordance with the policy towards nationalities laid down in the Common Programme of the Chinese People’s Political Consultative Conference, the Tibetan people have the right of exercising national regional autonomy under the unified leadership of the Central People’s Government.
4. The Central Authorities will not alter the existing political system in Tibet. The Central Authorities also will not alter the established status, functions and powers of the Dalai Lama. Officials of various ranks shall hold office as usual.
5. The established status, functions, and powers of the Panchen Lama shall be maintained.
6. By the established status, functions and powers of the Dalai Lama and of the Panchen Lama is meant the status, functions and powers of the 13th Dalai Lama and of the 9th Panchen Lama when they were in friendly and amicable relations with each other.
7. The policy of freedom of religious belief laid down in the Common Programme of the Chinese People’s Political Consultative Conference will be protected. The Central Authorities will not effect any change in the income of the monasteries.
8. The Tibetan troops will be reorganized step by step into the People’s Liberation Army, and become a part of the national defense forces of the Central People’s Government.
9. The spoken and written language and school education of the Tibetan nationality will be developed step by step in accordance with the actual conditions in Tibet.
10. Tibetan agriculture, livestock raising, industry and commerce will be developed step by step, and the people’s livelihood shall be improved step by step in accordance with the actual conditions in Tibet.
11. In matters related to various reforms in Tibet, there will be no compulsion on the part of the Central Authorities. The Local Government of Tibet should carry out reforms of its own accord, and when the people raise demands for reform, they must be settled through consultation with the leading personnel of Tibet.
12. In so far as former pro-imperialist and pro-Kuomintang officials resolutely sever relations with imperialism and the Kuomintang and do not engage in sabotage or resistance, they may continue to hold office irrespective of their past.
13. The People’s Liberation Army entering Tibet will abide by the above-mentioned policies and will also be fair in all buying and selling and will not arbitrarily take even a needle or a thread from the people.
14. The Central People’s Government will handle all external affairs of the area of Tibet; and there will be peaceful co-existence with neighboring countries and the establishment and development of fair commercial and trading relations with them on the basis of equality, mutual benefit and mutual respect for territory and sovereignty.
15. In order to ensure the implementation of this agreement, the Central People’s Government will set up a military and administrative committee and a military area headquarters in Tibet, and apart from the personnel sent there by the Central People’s Government it will absorb as many local Tibetan personnel as possible to take part in the work. Local Tibetan personnel taking part in the military and administrative committee may include patriotic elements from the Local Government of Tibet, various district and various principal monasteries; the name list is to be prepared after consultation between the representatives designated by the Central People’s Government and various quarters concerned, and is to be submitted to the Central People’s Government for approval.
16. Funds needed by the military and administrative committee, the military area headquarters and the People’s Liberation Army entering Tibet will be provided by the Central People’s Government. The Local Government of Tibet should assist the People’s Liberation Army in the purchases and transportation of food, fodder, and other daily necessities.
17. This agreement shall come into force immediately after signatures and seals are affixed to it.
Of course, Mao had no intention whatsoever of keeping to the agreement, it was just his way of taking control of Tibet.
He was sly and under-handed, even going so far as to forge the seal.
He knew he’d get away with it - and he did.
Unfortunately, the chinese are BIG on not wanting to ‘lose face’ so they will never apologise for Mao’s behaviour and give Tibet back to the Tibetans.
Just like you Yugung, you don’t want to ‘lose face’ so you will argue and make excuses until you are blue in the face, before admitting any wrong-doing by your own government.
You HAVE been brain-washed, no doubt about it.
07/11/2008 at 3:50 pm
Sara,
China did not invade Tibet in 1951.
All the nations in the world recognized Tibet as a part of China.
This was what [Indian Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru said to the India Parlaiment in 1954:
“Over the past several hundred years, as far as I know, at no time has
any foreign country denied China’s sovereignty over Tibet.”
Similarly US State Department document clearly stated that:
The United States considers the Tibet Autonomous Region or TAR
(hereinafter referred to as “Tibet”) as part of the People’s
Republic of China. This longstanding policy is consistent with the
view of the entire international community, including all China’s
neighbors: no country recognizes Tibet as a sovereign state.
u r waste everybody’s time making those long winded statement about China invading itself. If you want to tell the truth there is no need to wast so much words.
07/11/2008 at 3:55 pm
Emma,
How can he/she say that MOST Tibetans going to India are students, and they return during the school holidays?
What does Yugung think that these ’students’ say to the chinese border guards upon their return, during the school holidays?
“Hi there, I crossed the border going out of Tibet illegally, but hey, I’m back now for the school holidays, and when the school term starts again, I’ll be back, trying to cross the border into India illegally again. See ya.”
I think this Yugung character has some serious issues…..
yugung,
That is the truth.
It’s very cold out there especially during the long winter months. The guards stay in the camps and these illegal crossing take place all the time.
U like to hear sensational tales. Unfortunately the truth is often boring.
07/11/2008 at 6:16 pm
Yugung,
Shame on you!!! You obviously use the internet a lot, so I think you know very well that many Tibetans are being shot at and killed, as they try to make their way out o Tibet FOR A BETTER LIFE.
Sara posted video utube link for you to look at, which is PROOF that chinese soldiers are killing innocent Tibetans.
Instead of wasting your time trying to justify china’s history / actions, why don’t you spend some time reading about what life is like for Tibetans still living in Tibet.
Try learning compassion!!
07/11/2008 at 7:56 pm
Emma:
Shame on you!!! You obviously use the internet a lot, so I think you know very well that many Tibetans are being shot at and killed, as they try to make their way out o Tibet FOR A BETTER LIFE.
Sara posted video utube link for you to look at, which is PROOF that chinese soldiers are killing innocent Tibetans.
Instead of wasting your time trying to justify china’s history / actions, why don’t you spend some time reading about what life is like for Tibetans still living in Tibet.
Try learning compassion!!
Yugung:
If many Tibetans were shot, nobody will dare to illegally cross the border.
Everybody have survival instinct otherwise human race will not have survived.
It’s because the border guards were too relax that these things happened.
What happened at Nepal border is nothing compared with what we see everyday i Iraq or Gaza. Just because they can bash China with, it has been circulating for 2 years.
Where is ur sense of proportion.
Try and apply your compassion where it is most needed. i ve seen more terrible video such as a white cop in LA shooting a black driver for speeding. Have u watch it yet?
07/11/2008 at 8:25 pm
Sara:
The 17 point agreement was signed to unite China and avoid further blood shed.
You really believe this? Have you ever read the 17 point agreement? Where does it say, directly or indirectly, that signing it was to avoid further blood-shed?
Yugung:
Too bad you don’t understand the situation in 1951.
The Korean war has started CIA was instigating a rebellion in Tibet. The Dalai Lama and his adviser were choosing between CIA or autonomy under the 17 point agreement. They chose the later. That was the historical background. They is no need to put that into the 17 point agreement or it became long winded agreement.
Sara:
Did you know that even the seals affixed to the document (agreement) were forged by the Chinese Government to give it the necessary semblance of authenticity?
What do you say about that? Or are you going to somehow connect it to the CIA again?
yugung:
I know all their lies. I studied them.
The seal was given by the Emperor of China to the Local Government of Tibet.
It was carried by Ngabo Ngawang Jigme to Beijing during the negotiation of the 17 point agreement. In order to discredit the 17 point agreement they put up two rather contradicting lies.
1) that the delegation signed the agreement under duress.
2) the the delegation over stepped their power to sign, but then, why was the seal given to them in the first place? So they come up with the story that the seal was faked.
As I said, Ngabo Ngawang Jigme is still alive. He can testify.
U have to wait a few more years for Mr Jigme to die then u can lie more freely.
Don’t worry CIA will do just that. U just have to wait. They are very creative.
07/11/2008 at 9:37 pm
YUGUNG, you wrote:
Too bad you don’t understand the situation in 1951.
The Korean war has started CIA was instigating a rebellion in Tibet. The Dalai Lama and his adviser were choosing between CIA or autonomy under the 17 point agreement. They chose the later. That was the historical background. They is no need to put that into the 17 point agreement or it became long winded agreement.
My answer / comment:
Why do you blame the CIA for everything? And where is your proof? You talk, and talk, but where is your proof? Show me!!
Yugung, you also wrote:
I know all their lies. I studied them.
The seal was given by the Emperor of China to the Local Government of Tibet.
It was carried by Ngabo Ngawang Jigme to Beijing during the negotiation of the 17 point agreement. In order to discredit the 17 point agreement they put up two rather contradicting lies.
1) that the delegation signed the agreement under duress.
2) the the delegation over stepped their power to sign, but then, why was the seal given to them in the first place? So they come up with the story that the seal was faked.
As I said, Ngabo Ngawang Jigme is still alive. He can testify.
U have to wait a few more years for Mr Jigme to die then u can lie more freely.
Don’t worry CIA will do just that. U just have to wait. They are very creative.
My answer / comment:
Again, where is your proof? and I think if anyone can be accused of being ‘creative’ it is the Chinese government. They will come up with any excuse in order to justify their behaviour.
You are a PARANOID nation - everyone knows that. And if your nation didn’t have anything to hide, why all the secrecy? and why keep the chinese citizens in a ‘coma’ about their own history - and quite literally BAN anything that shows the CCP in a bad light?
Where do you live Yugung? and are you male or female? and how old are you?
07/11/2008 at 10:08 pm
Tibet Not Always Part of China: Chinese Historian
In an article titled “How Big was the Ancient China”, Fudan professor Ge Jianxiong:-
(In translation) … How big was the 8th-century “China”? If “China” means the land of the Tang Dynasty, the Qinghai-Tibetan Plateau, which was ruled by Tubo/Tufan (吐蕃), does not count. Tubo/Tufan was a sovereignty independent of the Tang Dynasty. At least it was not administered by the Tang Dynasty. Otherwise, there would have been no need for Tang Taizong to marry Princess Wencheng to the Tibetan king; there would have been no need to erect the Tang-Tubo/Tufan alliance tablet. It would be a defiance of history if we claim that since the Tang Dynasty Tibet has always been a part of China - the fact that the Qinghai-Tibetan Plateau subsequently became a part of the Chinese dynasties does not substantiate such a claim …
The article is published on the China Review magazine and syndicated to China’s biggest internet portals like 163 and QQ. It is quite remarkable since the official stance is that Tibet has historically always been an inalienable part of China (西藏自古以来就是中国不可分割的一部分) (see e.g. a recent People’s Daily report).
07/11/2008 at 10:53 pm
YUGUNG: you wrote:
This was what [Indian Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru said to the India Parlaiment in 1954:
“Over the past several hundred years, as far as I know, at no time has any foreign country denied China’s sovereignty over Tibet.”
My answer / comment:
Everyone knows that NEHRU was self-serving. Read this:
Subject: The famous Himalayan blunder!!!
On at least three occasions, Nehru sacrificed India’s interests for the sake of
international glory for himself.
First is his well-known blunder of referring Kashmir to the United Nations when Indian troops were on the verge of driving the Pakistanis out of Kashmir.
The next was his betrayal of TIBET to please China and gain glory for himself in Korea.
The third was his failure to settle the border with China because of his preoccupation with his fantasy of Pancha Sheel.
NEHRU AND THE CHINA / TIBET BLUNDER:
In the year 1950, two momentous events shook Asia and the world.
One was the Chinese invasion of Tibet, and the other, Chinese intervention
in the Korean War.
Logically, India should have devoted utmost attention to the immediate situation in Tibet, but NEHRU did exactly the opposite.
He treated the TIBETAN CRISIS in a haphazard fashion, while getting heavily involved in Korea. India today is paying for this folly by being the only country of its size in the world without an official boundary with its giant neighbor.
Tibet soon disappeared from the map. As in Kashmir, Nehru sacrificed
national interest at home in pursuit of international glory abroad.
WELL INTO 1950, THE INDIAN GOVERNMENT REGARDED TIBET AS A FREE AND INDEPENDENT COUNTRY.
The Chinese announced their invasion of Tibet on 25 October 1950. According to them, it was to ‘free Tibet from imperialist forces’, and consolidate its border with India.
NEHRU announced that he and the Indian Government were “extremely perplexed and disappointed with the Chinese Government’s action…”
NEHRU also complained that he had been “led to believe by the Chinese Foreign Office that the Chinese would settle the future of Tibet in a peaceful manner by direct negotiation with the representatives of Tibet…”
This was not true, for in September 1949, more than a year before the Chinese invasion, NEHRU himself had written: “Chinese communists are likely to invade Tibet.”
The truth is that India was in a strong position to defend its interests in Tibet, but gave up the opportunity for the sake of pleasing China.
So, China could have been stopped from invading Tibet, but sadly it was not to be.
The highly influential English journal The Economist echoed the Western viewpoint when it wrote:
“Having maintained complete independence of China since 1912, Tibet has a strong claim to be regarded as an independent state. But it is for India to take a lead in this matter….”.
Your comments Yugung???
07/12/2008 at 11:01 am
MAO TSE-TUNG QUOTES:
“A lie repeated a hundred times becomes the truth.”
“Religion is poison”
More Mao quotes to follow……
07/12/2008 at 11:03 am
Can someone tell me why the Tibetans only started to escape to India AFTER 1951?
Why not BEFORE this time?
07/12/2008 at 11:10 am
And can someone tell me why the CCP is so secretive? Is this what communism stands for?
And why do the CCP want to BAN the chinese citizens from viewing what they want to, on the internet?
07/12/2008 at 8:42 pm
Yugung said,
If many Tibetans were shot, nobody will dare to illegally cross the border.
Robert says:
Really? I wonder why so many North Koreans cross the border into China each year then? The North Koreans will shoot escapees without hesitation and sometimes it happens right in front of the Chinese border. You are wrong, my friend. History has shown again and again that people will risk their lives for freedom.
07/13/2008 at 10:18 am
RV;
Really? I wonder why so many North Koreans cross the border into China each year then? The North Koreans will shoot escapees without hesitation and sometimes it happens right in front of the Chinese border. You are wrong, my friend. History has shown again and again that people will risk their lives for freedom.
yugung:
Anybody in touch with reality knows that the situation in China is far better.
One of the commonly practiced propaganda technic is “transference”.
By constantly linking China with N Korea or Pol Pot the Dalai Camp hope to tanish China’s image to the passive unthinking masses. Of course RV may not be doing it conciously.
Real history will show that N Koreans escape to China for food. They are going to die any way so they risk their lives. As I said before facts are often boring. The Tibetan cross the border because the guards are too relax and and illegal crossing is easy most of the time. Just like drunken driving most people get away with it. When cought, just blame it on police brutality.
07/13/2008 at 10:41 am
Poorly educated:
MAO TSE-TUNG QUOTES:
“A lie repeated a hundred times becomes the truth.”
Yugung:
That quote was from Dr Paul Joseph Goebbels, Hitler’s Minister of Propaganda (1933-1945)
More mistake from Emma;
“Religion is poison”
Yugung:
That was from Karl Marx.
Please get an education.
07/13/2008 at 10:53 am
sara:
Nehru was stating a fact.
You are complaining about why he didn’t lie and took advantage of it?
That’s exactly what CIA is doing to day.
The US state Department document clearly stated that no nation has ever recognized Tibet as a sovereign nation prior to 1951.
That’s why CIA has to disguise itself as NGO in ploting Tibet Independence.
07/13/2008 at 11:11 am
Lenny:
Tibet Not Always Part of China: Chinese Historian
In an article titled “How Big was the Ancient China”, Fudan professor Ge Jianxiong:-
(In translation) … How big was the 8th-century “China”? If “China” means the land of the Tang Dynasty, the Qinghai-Tibetan Plateau, which was ruled by Tubo/Tufan (吐蕃), does not count. Tubo/Tufan was a sovereignty independent of the Tang Dynasty. At least it was not administered by the Tang Dynasty. Otherwise, there would have been no need for Tang Taizong to marry Princess Wencheng to the Tibetan king; there would have been no need to erect the Tang-Tubo/Tufan alliance tablet. It would be a defiance of history if we claim that since the Tang Dynasty Tibet has always been a part of China - the fact that the Qinghai-Tibetan Plateau subsequently became a part of the Chinese dynasties does not substantiate such a claim …
The article is published on the China Review magazine and syndicated to China’s biggest internet portals like 163 and QQ. It is quite remarkable since the official stance is that Tibet has historically always been an inalienable part of China (西藏自古以来就是中国不可分割的一部分) (see e.g. a recent People’s Daily report).
Yugung:
Have you read the entire original article and understood it?
It say Tibet was not part of china in the Tang Dynasty (about 600 AD- 900-AD).
I fully agree with that.
Tibet became a part of China in the Yuan dynasty (around 1270 AD)
You can cut and paste bits and pieces here and there and fool people like Emma.
“西藏自古以来就是中国不可分割的一部分” refers to the period since the Yuan dynasty.
That was 700 years.
07/13/2008 at 11:31 am
Dilan:
Can someone tell me why the Tibetans only started to escape to India AFTER 1951?
Why not BEFORE this time?
yugung:
The aristocrates land/slave owners left Tibet because they feared that they can no longer enjoy their previous life style after the arrival of the communist forces. They were also encouraged by the CIA who needed them because of the Korean war.
Dalai Lama’s 2 elder brothers started working for the CIA around 1951.
07/13/2008 at 12:04 pm
Sara,
As long as Ngabo Ngawang Jigme is still alive, he is the the best living witness about the 17 point agreement and the circunstances under which it was signed. That is for those people interested in the truth.
There are those bumb Chinese haters who will belive any lies u give them, as long as u bash China with them, they feel good. Just too bad.
07/13/2008 at 12:05 pm
Yugung, thanks for your words of wisdom. WOW - the CIA are to blame for almost everything bad that happens…. I never knew that.
So from 1951 onwards, the CIA have consistently contacted thousands of Tibetans, asking them to risk their lives escaping to India, because they were needed for the Korean War? I see….
I wonder why the CIA wanted women and children too?
07/13/2008 at 3:08 pm
Dilan said sarcastically:
thanks for your words of wisdom. WOW - the CIA are to blame for almost everything bad that happens…. I never knew that.
So from 1951 onwards, the CIA have consistently contacted thousands of Tibetans, asking them to risk their lives escaping to India, because they were needed for the Korean War? I see….
I wonder why the CIA wanted women and children too?
yugung:
This wasn’t the only time CIA used women and children as canon fodder.
The did the same with the Hmong during the Vietnam war.
I suppose u can call it vertical intergation where by u get an entire supply chain of CIA cannon fodder.
No, the CIA never told them about their real motive ie the Korean War.
CIA paid the God (Dalai) and God accepted the offer as figure head and CIA run the show.
Of course the Tibetan aristocrates have plenty of other reasons to hate the Communists as well.
07/13/2008 at 9:04 pm
Yugung,
Of course I was being sarcastic!!
Your comments get more and more bizarre …..
Where’s your proof that the CIA used Tibetan women and children as cannon fodder? You must have got your stupid information from somewhere, so where’s your proof?
07/13/2008 at 10:03 pm
Yugung said,
Anybody in touch with reality knows that the situation in China is far better.
One of the commonly practiced propaganda technic is “transference”.
By constantly linking China with N Korea or Pol Pot the Dalai Camp hope to tanish China’s image to the passive unthinking masses. Of course RV may not be doing it conciously.
Real history will show that N Koreans escape to China for food. They are going to die any way so they risk their lives. As I said before facts are often boring. The Tibetan cross the border because the guards are too relax and and illegal crossing is easy most of the time. Just like drunken driving most people get away with it. When cought, just blame it on police brutality.
Robert Vance says:
Have you actually ever been to Tibet? I have. People there were glad to eat my left over breakfast. They did not want money; they wanted food because they were hungry. And I am not talking about Lhasa; I’m talking about deep Tibet. It wouldn’t surprise me in the least if some people there were escaping because they were hungry.
Look, I was not trying to compare Tibet to North Korea. I was simply pointing out that people will risk their lives for freedom. If you don’t like the example of North Korea then think about the American slaves pre Civil War era who risked their lives to run North because the wanted their children to be born free. Think about people who fled from the USSR and even Communist China because they wanted to have a chance at a better life. It’s not all about food, my friend. Sometimes it’s about people who want to be free from oppression.
With that said, when you talk about being ‘in touch with reality’ where exactly does your reality come from? How do you know what the situation is really like in Tibet? Who are you to tell us why those people are trying to flee to India? Nepal and India are a long way from Lhasa. There are still parts of Tibet that foreigners are not allowed access to. There are places that the government doesn’t want anybody to see. Can anyone of us really say that we are in touch with reality when it comes to Tibet? I’ve spent time traveling throughout Lhasa and I know that I really don’t know what’s going on there. Well, I can say that there is are people who appear to be starving there and at times it seems to be like a police state with all of the checkpoints….but other than that…who really knows?
As far as your comments about the CIA are concerned, I am not really sure that those are helpful to the discussion. Americans are used to (and tired of) hearing the CIA held responsible for everything bad that happens in the world. The CIA is China’s favorite scapegoat when it comes to China trying to deflect criticism of its own human rights failures. Echoing what others have said…Where’s your proof?
07/13/2008 at 10:34 pm
YUGUNG:
Yes, I know it was Karl Marx who said that “religion is the opiate of the masses,” BUT…
his beliefs guided Mao Zedong who ECHOED “religion is poison.”
Hundreds of millions of people died as a result of Marx’s worldview as embraced by the communist regimes of Mao, Lenin, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc.
Don’t you know your own history?
07/14/2008 at 3:09 am
Yugung, where do you live and how old are you? I think it was Sara who asked you the same question, but you didn’t respond.
And, as Robert has asked, have you ever been to Tibet?
And I’d also like to know why, if in your opinion, Tibet has always been part of China, why isn’t Tibetan history and culture taught in the schools in china? I know for a fact it isn’t.
Just the same as the Tian’anmen Square massacre (June 4 movement) is not part of history lessons.
Don’t you think it’s wrong for the CCP to keep their citizens ‘in the dark’ ?
07/14/2008 at 3:55 pm
Dilan:
Where’s your proof that the CIA used Tibetan women and children as cannon fodder? You must have got your stupid information from somewhere, so where’s your proof?
Yugung:
One best example was the Dalai Lama himself.
He was only 15 when the CIA approached him to join the CIA in ploting a rebellion in Tibet. That was 1951.
You are igonrant.
CIA had been doing the same during the Vietnam recruiting children and women. If u have half a brian do a search yourdelf.
07/14/2008 at 4:55 pm
RV，
Agree that Tibet is a very poor province of China, in fact it is the second poorest province after Guizou. People are not so sophisticated.
Chinese Government has no interest in persecuting the Tibetans.
Well, so far, It’s your words against mine.
Here is an excerpt from an article written by someone to have been living with the Tibetans for decades:
……. foreign press has tended to act like a mouthpiece of the Tibetan government-in-exile, an organization whose overriding concern is, understandably, regain of their lost nation. As recently as March 10, the Times told us “The Chinese are trying to annihilate the Tibetan people as a race. Under the Chinese, there are starvation, torture, forced labor and mass murder.” The source for this information was a woman who left Tibet four decades ago as a nine-year-old girl.
Such uncritical acceptance of flawed and biased information has been routine in American newspapers. Journalists have read the poorly-researched work of other journalists, written more of the same, and built up a demand for China-bashing stories. Such reporting sells newspapers by staying in the public’s comfort zone, shielding us from moral ambiguity; but it is mighty poor journalism.
As president of an NGO that brings foreign aid into Tibet, I have seen how Tibetans are hurt by the information blackout. When I try to raise money for repair of Buddhist monasteries, potential donors cite widely reported figures of four thousand, five thousand, or six thousand (take your pick) monasteries razed by the Chinese, and are reluctant to believe there is anything left to repair. When I solicit donations on behalf of schools in Tibet, people object erroneously that schools do not teach Tibetan language and are therefore instruments of the Chinese policy of cultural annihilation. When I ran an art conservation program that rescued some rare and endangered Tibetan murals, some felt that because the Chinese government allowed this project, there must be something wrong with it, and advised one of my volunteer workers not to participate. The American public has been conditioned to believe that the Chinese are utterly opposed to any sort of Tibetan cultural or economic advancement. Accurate reporting would show that this is simply not the case. [Pamela Logan Kham, Aid Foundation]
07/14/2008 at 7:16 pm
Yugung, you wrote:
One best example was the Dalai Lama himself.
He was only 15 when the CIA approached him to join the CIA in ploting a rebellion in Tibet. That was 1951.
You are igonrant.
CIA had been doing the same during the Vietnam recruiting children and women. If u have half a brian do a search yourdelf.
My comment / answer:
Where’s your proof? Where, in any text, does it state that the Dalai Lama knew the CIA were using Tibetan women and children as cannon fodder?
I want FACTS. The burden of proof is on YOUR shoulders, not mine, so YOU do a search….
Why should I search, when I know for a FACT that what you write and believe is utter RUBBISH.
07/14/2008 at 10:08 pm
Dilan:
Where’s your proof? Where, in any text, does it state that the Dalai Lama knew the CIA were using Tibetan women and children as cannon fodder?
I want FACTS. The burden of proof is on YOUR shoulders, not mine, so YOU do a search….
Why should I search, when I know for a FACT that what you write and believe is utter RUBBISH.
Yugung:
Idiot! Can’t u understand that the Dalai Lama himself was only 15 when the CIA tried to use him.
07/14/2008 at 10:17 pm
Emma:
And I’d also like to know why, if in your opinion, Tibet has always been part of China, why isn’t Tibetan history and culture taught in the schools in china? I know for a fact it isn’t.
Yugung:
Not true!
In middle school history text book students learn about how Tibet became part of China since Yuan dynasty and also how Emperor of Qing Dynasty appointed the Amban to administer Tibet. I don’t know where u get ur info. u r wrong.
BTW, I will not answer any personal question because next thing I get is stereotyping.
07/14/2008 at 10:33 pm
Yugung, I think what you should be saying is this:
The Dalai Lama was only 15 when Mao took advantage!!
You continue to blame the CIA and the Dalai Lama for EVERYTHING.
What about the human rights abuse in China (and I mean in China, not in Tibet)?
Are the CIA responsible for this too?
And why don’t you at least want to tell everyone in which country you are residing?
07/14/2008 at 10:36 pm
Yugung would rather say ‘the sky is green and the grass is blue’ than ‘lose face’ and admit there are GROSS human right issues in both China and Tibet.
07/14/2008 at 10:56 pm
Yugung, I think what you should be saying is this:
The Dalai Lama was only 15 when Mao took advantage!!
You continue to blame the CIA and the Dalai Lama for EVERYTHING.
What about the human rights abuse in China (and I mean in China, not in Tibet)?
Are the CIA responsible for this too?
Yugung:
Mao wanted peaceful settlement of China’s internal conflict. The result was the 17 point agreement of 1951. He did not use anybody as cannon fodder.
CIA on the other hand tried to stir up conflict in Tibet and that meant getting people killed including Tibetan women and children for US national interest.
Unfortunately, those who understand Tibetan history since the Korean War also know how CIA play the crucial role at every stage.
07/14/2008 at 11:03 pm
No country is perfect. On a scale of 10 I give China’s government 7 on overall performance. Bush will get 3.
07/14/2008 at 11:59 pm
Yugung, you make me laugh…. ha ha ha
Mao was responsible for approximately 40 MILLION deaths of his OWN people, let alone responsible for the deaths of thousands of Tibetans.
You know very well that the ONLY way Mao could take control of Tibet, was by LIES and FORCE.
Where does it say in the 17 point agreement that it was to bring about peaceful settlement of internal conflict?
I’ve actually read the 17 point agreement - and clearly you haven’t.
Besides which, for there to be ‘internal’ conflict, you would have to say that Tibet was part of China before 1951, yet the fact is Tibet was not part of China, hence the signing of the agreement.
I can’t believe how unbelievably cold-hearted you are. Are you a direct descendant of Mao, by any chance?
07/15/2008 at 12:20 am
If Tibet was always part of China why weren’t Tibetans living under the same totalitarian dictatorship as the Chinese, prior to the 17 point agreement?
Are Tibetans now classed as ‘Communists’ or ‘Buddhists’?
They can’t be both…. for the simple fact that Communism and Buddhism are so far removed from each other.
07/15/2008 at 4:16 am
CHINA’S ARM DEALS IN SUDAN:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7503428.stm
Way to go China…. I wonder if Yugung will blame THIS on the CIA / Dalai lama..
07/15/2008 at 4:21 am
Tony,
Yes, it will be interesting to see who Yugung blames this one on.
China has proved, yet again, that it can’t be trusted.
07/15/2008 at 4:23 am
CHINA ONCE AGAIN PROVES IT CANNOT BE TRUSTED:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7503428.stm
07/15/2008 at 9:52 am
Tony:
If Tibet was always part of China why weren’t Tibetans living under the same totalitarian dictatorship as the Chinese, prior to the 17 point agreement?
yugung:
The Communists only came to power in 1949. Tibet has been part of China since around 1270 AD.
Tony:
Are Tibetans now classed as ‘Communists’ or ‘Buddhists’?
They can’t be both…. for the simple fact that Communism and Buddhism are so far removed from each other.
Yugung:
I don’t know.
The Dalai Lama claims that he is half marxist, half monk.
His western followers are mostly racists and cold warriors seeking shelter as defender of the Tibetans. They are just hypocrites attaching their own agenda on something that they neither care nor know about.
07/15/2008 at 11:25 am
Dilan:
CHINA’S ARM DEALS IN SUDAN:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7503428.stm
Way to go China…. I wonder if Yugung will blame THIS on the CIA / Dalai lama..
Yugung:
u want to know CIA’s role in Darfur?
It has to do with oil.
The Darfur separatists were brutal terrorist backed by the CIA to grab oil from Sudan.
When they lose the gamble the claim to be pityful victims. Unfortunately ethnic hatred when started is hard to quell.
The media give the impression that Dafur is China problem.
Not so!
——————–
Early CIA Involvement in Darfur Has Gone Unreported
by Jay Janson
In 1978 oil was discovered in Southern Sudan. Rebellious war began five years later and was led by John Garang, who had taken military training at infamous Fort Benning, Georgia. “The US government decided, in 1996, to send nearly $20 million of military equipment through the ‘front-line’ states of Ethiopia, Eritrea and Uganda to help the Sudanese opposition overthrow the Khartoum regime.” [Federation of American Scientists fas.org]
Between 1983 and the peace agreement signed in January 2005, Sudan’s civil war took nearly two million lives and left millions more displaced. Garang became a First Vice President of Sudan as part of the peace agreement in 2005. From 1983, “war and famine-related effects resulted in more than 4 million people displaced and, according to rebel estimates, more than 2 million deaths over a period of two decades.”
Friends and foes alike found the SPLA’s human rights record in southern Sudan and Mr Garang’s style of governance disturbing.” Gill Lusk - deputy editor of Africa Confidential and a Sudan specialist who interviewed the ex-guerrilla leader several times over the years was quoted by BBC, “John Garang did not tolerate dissent and anyone who disagreed with him was either imprisoned or killed.”
CIA use of tough guys like Garang in Sudan, Savimbi in Angola, Mobutu in Zaire (now the Democratic Republic of the Congo), had been reported, even in mass media, though certainly not featured or criticized, but presently, this is of course buried away from public awareness and meant to be forgotten, as commercial media focuses on presenting the U.S. wars of today in a heroic light.
————————–
07/15/2008 at 11:41 am
Dilon,
I ve already explained about the 17 point agreement to Sara and will not repeat.
How dare u said that I ve not read the 17 point agreement!
07/15/2008 at 2:55 pm
Yugung,
Take your head out from the sand for just a moment, and read this:
(13 July 2008)
The BBC has found the first evidence that CHINA is currently helping Sudan’s government militarily in Darfur.
The Panorama TV programme tracked down CHINESE army lorries in the Sudanese province that came from a batch exported from China to Sudan in 2005.
The BBC was also told that CHINA was training fighter pilots who fly CHINESE A5 FANTAN FIGHTER JETS in Darfur.
CHINA’S GOVERNMENT has declined to comment on the BBC’s findings, which contravene a UN arms embargo on Darfur.
The embargo requires foreign nations to take measures to ensure they do not militarily assist anyone in the conflict in Darfur, in which the UN estimates that about 300,000 people have died.
Plates on the first truck show it was imported FROM CHINA AFTER the embargo.
They found a CHINESE DONG FENG army lorry in the hands of one of Darfur’s rebel groups.
The rebels filmed a second lorry with the BBC’s camera. Both vehicles had been carrying anti-aircraft guns, one a CHINESE gun.
Markings showed that they were from a batch of 212 DONG FENG army lorries that the UN had traced as having arrived in Sudan after the arms embargo was put in place.
The lorries came STRAIGHT FROM THE FACTORY IN CHINA to Sudan and were consigned to Sudan’s defence ministry. The guns were mounted after the lorries were imported from CHINA.
Culpability:
CHINA HAS CHOSEN NOT TO RESPOND to the BBC’s findings. Its public position is that it abides by all UN arms embargoes.
CHINA has said in the past that it told Sudan’s government not to use Chinese military equipment in Darfur.
Sudan’s government, however, has told the UN that it will send military equipment wherever it likes within its sovereign territory.
An international lawyer, Clare da Silva, says CHINA’S point that it has taken measures in line with the arms embargo’s requirements to stop its weapons from going to Darfur is meaningless.
“It is an empty measure to take the assurances from a partner who clearly has no intention of abiding by the resolution,” she said.
Ms da Silva said the BBC’s evidence put CHINA IN VIOLATION OF THE ARMS EMBARGO.
The CHINESE ARE ACCUSED of training pilots to use Fantan fighter jets.
The BBC has established that CHINESE FANTAN FIGHTER JETS were flying on missions out of Nyala airport in south Darfur in February.
Panorama acquired satellite photographs of the two fighters at the airport on 18 June 2008, and its investigations indicate these are the only fighter jets that have been based in Darfur this year.
Pilot training:
The CHINESE FANTAN JETS are believed to have been delivered to Sudan in 2003 before the current UN arms embargo was imposed on Darfur.
But the BBC has been told by two confidential sources that CHINA IS TRAINING FANTAN FIGHTER PILOTS.
“Clearly this is what they used to train for operations with the Fantans,” said Chris Dietrich, a former member of the UN panel on Darfur.
This second truck also had plates identifying it as being from CHINA.
International lawyer Ms da Silva says if China is training Fantan pilots, this represents ANOTHER CHINESE VIOLATION of the UN arms embargo.
“The terms of the embargo cover not only just the supply of weapons, military vehicles, paramilitary equipment. It also covers training any technical assistance, so the training of pilots obviously falls within the scope of the embargo.”
There are STRONG ECONOMIC TIES BETWEEN CHINA AND SUDAN.
When CHINA’S PRESIDENT HU JINTAO visited Sudan in 2007 he wrote off millions of dollars worth of debt and donated a multi-million pound interest free loan for a new presidential palace to Sudan’s President Omar al-Bashir.
In April last year, CHINA’S military leaders pledged to strengthen co-operation with Sudan.
07/15/2008 at 3:15 pm
This is in response to YUGUNG’S comments on the CIA’s involvement with the Dalai Lama:
You really need to look into the historical situation in much more detail before making broad accusations Yugung.
As for the Dalai Lama receiving CIA funding, this should not be taken to imply that the Dalai Lama worked for the CIA.
Rather, it should be taken to imply that the CIA helped subsidize the escape and re-establishment of his government.
The CIA did fund the Tibetan resistance, and also provided money for the Dalai Lama’s relocation and the continuity of government.
If funds were provided for his office, that does not in any way imply that he himself benefitted personally from that.
Think about the complexity of trying to relocate an entire government and exile community.
Now add to that the complexity of doing this while being invaded, hunted, and while still a very young man with no political experience.
That is the situation that the Dalai Lama faced at that time.
Not only would the expense have been large, but the use of funds would probably be a bit disorganized as well — after all they were on the run as exiles, and were outside of Tibet for the first time.
They didn’t have the luxury to squander money for personal gain — they were fighting for basic day-to-day survival!
When the Dalai Lama and the Tibetan Government went into exile, they took whatever they could from their treasury.
How else would they fund their exile government, and take care of the hundreds of thousands of homeless exiles who followed them to India?
All other governments would do the same.
It is perfectly rationale, and furthemore, justified.
Nothing about that implies that the Dalai Lama gained personally from that. In fact, quite the contrary — he would have been much better off personally if he had simply submitted to China in the first place. Instead he chose to resist the Chinese.
Furthermore, had the Tibetan government left their precious relics in Tibet, the Chinese would have simply destroyed them, as they did to almost all the monasteries and historical relics and artworks that were left behind.
So even merely from the perspective of cultural preservation, it was necessary to remove those precious historical objects from Tibet before the Chinese army could get to them.
07/16/2008 at 2:17 pm
Hi Angela,
What do u think the CIA get in return?
Do u belive that the CIA is some kind of charity organ.
You are right that Dalai Lama has little bargaining power and therefore was completely at the mercy of the Americans. Other CIA puppets such as Marcos or Suharto has bargaining power. The Dalai Lama has none and so he is total puppet.
07/16/2008 at 2:44 pm
Angela said this:
When the Dalai Lama and the Tibetan Government went into exile, they took whatever they could from their treasury.
How else would they fund their exile government, and take care of the hundreds of thousands of homeless exiles who followed them to India?
All other governments would do the same.
It is perfectly rationale, and furthemore, justified.
Nothing about that implies that the Dalai Lama gained personally from that. In fact, quite the contrary — he would have been much better off personally if he had simply submitted to China in the first place. Instead he chose to resist the Chinese.
Furthermore, had the Tibetan government left their precious relics in Tibet, the Chinese would have simply destroyed them, as they did to almost all the monasteries and historical relics and artworks that were left behind.
So even merely from the perspective of cultural preservation, it was necessary to remove those precious historical objects from Tibet before the Chinese army could get to them.
Yugung:
Around 1949 the rich land owners and aristocrates have already looted Tibet clean and took all the valubles to India before the arrival of the Red Army. (Of course to some of u, the Communists are just bandits blah blah blah) The Dalai Lama household also had their gold taken out by his elder Brothers and sisters even though the young Dalai Lama stayed behing in Tibet until 1959. The Dalai Lama himself wanted to join the China Communist Party in 1954 because he saw the injustice in the old Tibet society. So get the facts right on who’s looting Tibet and when was Tibet looted.
The distruction that took place in Tibet during the cultural revolution was done by the ethnic Tibetan Red guards. Tibet is very remote and very few red guards from other parts of China had ever reached Tibet during the cultural revolution.
Most of the destruction in Tibet was carried out by ethnic Tibetans,
Many of them were children of former slaves and serfs.
After 1949 many young Tibetans were given scholarships to study in
other parts of China. Because of the Cultural Revolution, many schools
were closed and these ethnic Tibetan students returned to Tibet
forming their own red guards brigades and went on rampage. CR took place around 1966-1974.
07/16/2008 at 3:31 pm
Dilan,
It was the greedy USA that released the monster of ethnic hatred on the people of Dafur way back in 1978.
BBC has been very bias in its reporting about China. The Tibet Information Network has been for a long time run by BBC journalists. BBC once used footage of an open heart surgery and told its audience that they have captured Chinese doctors doing kidney transplants from prisoners. They subsequently apologized.
More recently they used footage of Nepal police beating up Tibetans and tell audience that was Chinese police. I don’t trust them. They are the biggest American fan.
07/16/2008 at 8:13 pm
Yugung, I have nothing left to say to you, except you are a complete idiot.
I’m not going to even bother viewing this web site again.
A monkey makes more sense than you do.
07/17/2008 at 9:29 am
How To Write Anti China Propaganda
Facts:
1) Oil was discovered in Dafur in 1978.
2) CIA trained and arm the Dafur separatists to grab these oil fields.
3) These are brutal terrorists.
4) They failed and 2 millions people killed in the last 20 years.
5) China only came to the stage in the last 5 years.
Writting propaganda:
1) constantly remind readers that 2 millions people died because of China.
2 ) get some movie stars to condemn China. (Does having a sexy body have anything to do with knowledge about Dafur or Tibet?)
3) get some US government sponsured bogus NGOs such as Reporters without Border to stage sensational demonstration in front of patriotic American media.
4) constantly feed the media with one sided reporting leaving out the not so nice part about CIA’s role in arming the rebels.
The final result is people actually believe that Chinese kill 2 mil Sudanese and that Americans are their saviors.
Probably less than 1 in 10000 people in the west have ever heard of CIA having a role in inciting Dafur ethnic conflict.
07/17/2008 at 5:37 pm
To yugung,
re. your comment above - ‘China only came to the stage in the last 5 years’.
What are you trying to say exactly? That it’s ok for China to sell arms and trucks to the sudanese government, because they only came into the picture 5 years ago and therefore they can be excused for contributing to the massacre in Darfur?
What’s wrong with you?
07/17/2008 at 10:36 pm
Hi Pete,
I note that you have only recently started to comment on this website.
Just to warn you… don’t expect Yugung to answer any questions honestly.
He/she lives in a fantasy world, where everything bad and wrong is blamed entirely on the CIA or the CIA and the Dalai Lama.
Yugung will NEVER admit any wrong-doing by the CCP, even when the evidence is there, in black & white.
I have decided to choose another website for discussing issues concerning Tibet, as a monkey makes more sense than Yugung.
07/18/2008 at 4:19 pm
pete:
What are you trying to say exactly? That it’s ok for China to sell arms and trucks to the sudanese government, because they only came into the picture 5 years ago and therefore they can be excused for contributing to the massacre in Darfur?
Yugung:
The bulk of the killing and the 2 mil dead took place in the 80s and the 90s.
Nobody cares now the try to blame everything on to China.
If you guys are so holy and care about human rights how come I don’t hear any comdemnation for the CIA.
Many of the world’s conflicts coud not be solved because the “peace effort” are started by hypocrites with zero credibility. They have completely fail to address the fact that the separatists are equally brutal muderers.
07/18/2008 at 4:30 pm
Yugung,
The UN (United Nations) will be investigating China’s ILLEGAL arms deals to Sudan within the near future….
The truth will come out then.
As for the CIA, yes they have a lot to answer for, but so does China.
You’re painting China as paradise, when it is anything but paradise.
It’s time you woke up.
07/18/2008 at 4:41 pm
pete, lenny, angela, emma, sara, dilon,
suddenly so many people are reading this thread. is that possible? lol
is dilon really talking to pete or himself?
07/18/2008 at 4:53 pm
pete or whoever,
i ve never call china a paradise. china is just a normal country. because of china’s size and rapid rise, western countries are very worried about china taking away their influence thus the need to demonized china. when they see a few chinese made trucks their imagination run wild. they need a period of de-sensitization.
07/21/2008 at 12:02 pm
secrecy makes people afraid ,and worried , a peaceful rise of china is warmly welcome by everyone but objectivity and trust must be respected. westerners made mistakes and today they are trying to be perfect so should china, the cold war is over, today we need peace and reconcilation, china as a growing power should accept criticism and behave calmly like a super power and not pointing fingers or diverting issues. today CIA is of no use,people need space and freedom. about tibet, tibet is part of china and so what is wrong for tibetans to ask for a divorce as they did far back in history when they were inter married with han chinese willingly and the signing of the 17 points, so it means today they have the right to decide their future, to stay in the union or not …
07/22/2008 at 3:36 pm
espero:
today CIA is of no use,people need space and freedom. about tibet, tibet is part of china and so what is wrong for tibetans to ask for a divorce as they did far back in history when they were inter married with han chinese willingly and the signing of the 17 points, so it means today they have the right to decide their future, to stay in the union or not …
yugong:
Sorry I don’t agree with ur asseassment of the CIA. CIA is a threat .
Pentagon papers stated clearly that US’s aim is to prevent the emergence of another great power that will compete for influence with the United States.
CIA’s aim is to split Tibet, Xinjiang and Inner Mongolia from China and them ethnically cleanse those places and reduce China to 1/3 of its current size cut off from the energy supply from central Asia.
Even if they fail to achieve that they want China to pay a high price for maintaining internal stability. All the Himalayan States, Nepal, Bhutan and Sikkim are very very poor. The Dalai Lama himself do not ask for Tibet independence. It’s not viable but people in the west have different idea and we are not going to let them experiment it at our expense. It’s always easy to give advise to others when u don’t have to suffer the consequence of ur action.
Tibet has been part of China before the 17 point agreement. The signing of the 17 point agreement as to find a temporary solution to the civil war in 1951.
07/22/2008 at 7:32 pm
Yugung said,
Sorry I don’t agree with ur asseassment of the CIA. CIA is a threat .
Pentagon papers stated clearly that US’s aim is to prevent the emergence of another great power that will compete for influence with the United States.
Robert Vance said,
Well, if the CIA is a threat to the world then so is the Chinese Secret Intelligence Service (CSIS) and the Chinese military. I don’t deny for a moment that the CIA is active in other countries. But what about all of the evidence pointing to attempts by the Chinese military to hack into our defense systems and wreak havoc on our national security? What about reports that the CSIS is infiltrating the US through Canada? If we are going to rely on the same evidence that you are presenting about the CIA’s activities in China (which really you haven’t given us any) then we can’t forget about China is up to either. Come on. I am tired of hearing China portrayed as a country that ‘minds its own business’ and doesn’t ‘mettle’ in the affairs of others. Intelligence is a game that all the major world players have been playing for a long time.
07/23/2008 at 9:51 am
RV:
Well, if the CIA is a threat to the world then so is the Chinese Secret Intelligence Service (CSIS) and the Chinese military. I don’t deny for a moment that the CIA is active in other countries. But what about all of the evidence pointing to attempts by the Chinese military to hack into our defense systems and wreak havoc on our national security? What about reports that the CSIS is infiltrating the US through Canada? If we are going to rely on the same evidence that you are presenting about the CIA’s activities in China (which really you haven’t given us any) then we can’t forget about China is up to either. Come on. I am tired of hearing China portrayed as a country that ‘minds its own business’ and doesn’t ‘mettle’ in the affairs of others. Intelligence is a game that all the major world players have been playing for a long time.
yugung:
I m sure both USA and China have secret services.
Why then, do you some how dismiss the role of the CIA in Tibet and Xinjiang?
On the one hand western government groan loudly about some computers being hacked while at the same time deny that the Dalai Lama has anything to do with CIA.
Most people can see that USA is no the offensive and China is defensive.
It is not in China’s nationa interest to cause more trouble at home while many in the US consider China’s miseries their gains.
07/23/2008 at 8:45 pm
Yugung said,
yugung:
I m sure both USA and China have secret services.
Why then, do you some how dismiss the role of the CIA in Tibet and Xinjiang?
On the one hand western government groan loudly about some computers being hacked while at the same time deny that the Dalai Lama has anything to do with CIA.
Most people can see that USA is no the offensive and China is defensive.
It is not in China’s nationa interest to cause more trouble at home while many in the US consider China’s miseries their gains.
Robert Vance says:
The point is, we can point fingers at each other’s intelligence services until the cows come home but unless we actually have some evidence to back our claims up, what’s the point? Who knows, maybe the CIA is involved in Tibet. And maybe the Chinese government has a number of infiltrators in the U.S. Government who are attempting to compromise our national security. You can’t prove that the CIA is involved with the Dalai Lama and I can’t prove that Chinese intelligence is involved in covert operations in other countries. If the CIA is working so hard in china as you would like to claim, then you can bet that the CSIS is working just as hard in the US and other countries. Again, this is Intelligence, a game that has been around since the beginning of time. Every country is involved in it. I just don’t get why the CIA is always everyone’s favorite scapegoat. Ever heard of MOSSAD? How about the KGB? Don’t forget about them.
07/23/2008 at 9:03 pm
RV,
CIA is not scape goat.
They have been involved in Tibet since the Korean War. Some of their older files are partially declassified now.
How you think the Dalai Lama financed his operation all this while without tax revenue.
How do u think he maintained 14 representative offices all over the world?
Where do u think his US$20 mil annual budget for running his Gov in exile come from? Declassified documents told part of the story. I m not speculating.
With today’s atmosphere in the Pentagon you don’t think that China is a target?
Why do u think they are expanding their naval base in Guam. Why do u think about their plan ti increase the number of carrier battle group in the Pacific?
07/23/2008 at 9:39 pm
Yugung, I just read your comment via my email address.
You should do something about your PARANOIA……
07/24/2008 at 9:34 am
Who are behind the Tibet campaign and how are they linked to the Anglo-American alliance?
Here is part of the answer.
The National Endowment for Democracy: Revisiting the CIA Connection
By Michael Barker
The National Endowment for Democracy (NED) was established in 1984 with bipartisan support during President Reagan’s administration to “foster the infrastructure of democracy – the system of a free press, unions, political parties, universities” around the world.[8] Considering Reagan’s well documented misunderstanding of what constitutes democratic governance,[9] it is fitting that Allen Weinstein, the NEDs first acting president, observed that in fact “A lot of what we [the NED] do today was done covertly 25 years ago by the CIA”.[10] So for example, it is not surprising that during the 1990 elections in Nicaragua it is has been estimated that “for every dollar of NED or AID funding there were several dollars of CIA funding”.[11]
By building upon the pioneering work of liberal philanthropists (like the Ford and Rockefeller Foundations’) – who have a long history of co-opting progressive social movements – it appears that the NED was envisaged by US foreign policy elites to be a more suitable way to provide strategic funding to nongovernmental organizations than via covert CIA funding.[12] Indeed, the NED’s ‘new’ emphasis on overt funding of geostrategically useful groups, as opposed to the covert funding, appears to have leant an aura of respect to the NED’s work, and has enabled them, for the most part, to avoid much critical commentary in the mainstream media.
The seminal book exposing the NED’s ‘democratic’ modus operandi, is William I. Robinson’s (1996) Promoting Polyarchy, which as it’s title suggests, lays out the argument that instead of promoting more participatory forms of democracy, the NED actually works to promote polyarchy. Robinson argues that the NED’s active promotion of polyarchy or low-intensity democracy “is aimed not only at mitigating the social and political tensions produced by elite-based and undemocratic status quos, but also at suppressing popular and mass aspirations for more thoroughgoing democratisation of social life in the twenty-first century international order.” His book furnishes detailed examples of how the NED has successfully imposed polyarchal arrangements on four countries, Chile, Nicaragua, the Philippines, and Haiti; while similarly, Barker (2006) has illustrated the NED’s anti-democratic involvement in facilitating and manipulating the ‘colour revolutions’ which recently swept across Eastern Europe. More recently, both Barker and Gerald Sussman (2006) have provided detailed examinations’ of how the NED works to promote a low intensity public sphere (globally) through its selective funding of media organizations.[13] This article will now extend these three initial studies by critically examining the NED’s support for Tibetan media projects from 1990 onwards.
‘Democacy Promoters’ and Tibet
The International Campaign for Tibet (ICT) was founded in 1988 and is a non-profit membership organization with offices in Washington, DC, Amsterdam, Berlin and Brussels. Their website notes that they “fundamentally believe that there must be a political solution based on direct dialogue between the Dalai Lama and his representatives and the People’s Republic of China.” ICT received their first NED grant (of the 1990s) in 1994 to:
“…enhance Chinese knowledge of Tibet by contributing articles about Tibet to newspapers and magazines within China and abroad; translating books about Tibet into Chinese; and facilitating a series of discussion meetings among key Chinese and Tibetan figures, focusing on bringing Chinese journalists and pro-democracy leaders together with Tibetan leaders in exile.”
Since then, the ICT has received regular support from the NED, obtaining subsequent grants in 1997, 1998, 2000, 2001, 2002 and 2003 (all for media work except the 1997 grant). Like many groups that obtain NED aid, ICT are not afraid to boast of their ‘democratic’ connections, and in 2005 they even awarded one of their annual Light of Truth awards to the president of the NED, Carl Gershman. Furthermore, the year before (in 2004) ICT gave the same award to both Vaclav Havel (who had received the NED’s Democracy Award in 1991, and serves on the advisory board of the Project on Justice in Times of Transition), and also to one of the earliest ‘democracy promoting’ organizations, the Friedrich Naumann Foundation. (For a summary of the key ‘democratic’ connections of the Project on Justice in Times of Transition and all the other groups mentioned in this article see, Barker (2007) Hijacking Human Rights: A Critical Examination of Human Rights Watch’s Americas Branch and their Links to the ‘Democracy’ Establishment. Due to this article’s heavy reliance on internet sources most links have been omitted from the paper, however, a fully referenced paper can be obtained from the author upon request.)
Some of ICT’s directors are also integral members of the ‘democracy promoting’ establishment, and include Bette Bao Lord (who is the chair of Freedom House, and a director of Freedom Forum),[14] Gare A. Smith (who has previously served as principal deputy assistant secretary in the U.S. Department of State’s Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights and Labor), Julia Taft (who is a former director of the NED, the former U.S. Assistant Secretary of State and Special Coordinator for Tibetan Issues, has worked for USAID, and has also served as the President and CEO of InterAction), and finally, Mark Handelman (who is also a director of the National Coalition for Haitian Rights, an organization whose work is ideologically linked to the NED’s longstanding interventions in Haiti).[15] The ICT’s board of advisors also presents two individuals who are closely linked to the NED, Harry Wu, and Qiang Xiao (who is the former executive director of the NED-funded Human Rights in China).[16] Like their board of directors, ICT’s international council of advisors includes many ‘democratic’ notables like Vaclav Havel, Fang Lizhi (who in 1995 – at least – was a board member of Human Rights in China), Jose Ramos-Horta (who serves on the international advisory board for the Democracy Coalition Project), Kerry Kennedy (who is a director of the NED-funded China Information Center), Vytautas Landsbergis (who is an international patron of the British-based neoconservative Henry Jackson Society – see Clark, 2005), and until her recent death, the “mid-wife of the neocons” Jeane J. Kirkpatrick (who was also linked to ‘democratic’ groups like Freedom House and the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies).[17]
Next up is the Tibet Fund, who first received NED aid in 1990 to “produce audio cassettes that will bring world and Tibetan news into rural communities in Tibet.” They then received continued NED support for this work in 1994 and 1996, whereupon the distribution of the audio tapes was extended to Tibetan exile communities in India and Nepal as well as those in Tibet. In 1996, the Tibet Fund also received NED aid on behalf of the Tibet Voice Project, “for an educational initiative based in Dharamsala, India, aimed at raising the social, political, economic and environmental awareness of Tibetans through audio-visual media.” The NED notes that:
“Particular emphasis will be given to speeches of the Dalai Lama on the topics of democracy and human rights. In Dharamsala, it will continue a series of lectures and films emphasizing social issues, politics, the economy and environment for new refugees and Tibetans in exile; and will organize grassroots level dialogues between Tibetans in exile and Indian youth to increase awareness and support for the Tibetan cause in India.”
The Tibet Fund’s work with the Tibet Voice Project was continued in 1998, and the Fund also received NED aid to run “an electronic media workshop for Tibetan journalists, and to introduce a bi-monthly Chinese language news magazine about Tibet.” Tenzing Choephel is the Tibetan scholarship program co-ordinator for the Tibet Fund, and it important to note that he previously helped “lay the foundation of the Tibetan Center for Human Rights and Democracy [a group that was founded in 1996 and received NED funding in 1999], where he worked as an Office Administrator / English Researcher for three years in Dharamsala.” Finally it is interesting to observe that three people who are involved with the International Campaign for Tibet are linked to the Tibet fund, these are Lodi G. Gyari (who is the the executive chairman of the board of the ICT, and an emertius director of the Tibet Fund), Gehlek Rinpoche (who serves on ICT’s advisory board, and is a director of the Tibet Fund), and Tenzin N. Tethong (who serves on ICT’s advisory board, and is a founder and emeritus director of the Tibet Fund).
Another group that has received strong NED backing is the London-based Tibet Information Network (TIN), who between 1999 and 2004 received annual NED grants (excepting 2000) to “provide comprehensive, accurate information about political, social, and economic developments in Tibet to Tibetan audiences, the international community, human rights groups, and the media.” TIN was cofounded in 1987 by Nicholas Howen (who is now the secretary general of the International Commission of Jurists) and Robert J. Barnett. Robert J. Barnett was the Director of TIN between 1987 and 1998 and now works at the Weatherhead East Asian Institute, alongside fellow faculty member Andrew J. Nathan (who is an editor of the NED’s Journal of Democracy, and also serves on the advisory board for the NED-funded Beijing Spring magazine). It is important to note that between 1998 and 2002 – the time coinciding with the start of the NED’s support for TIN – the organization was directed by Richard Oppenheimer who incidentally had just spent 22 years working for the BBC World Service. In 2002, Oppenheimer was then replaced by the world famous Tibetologist, Thierry Dodin, who left TIN in 2005 when it was announced that TIN “had to close down for lack of funds”, and he subsequently went on to direct the TibetInfoNet.[18]
The Tibetan Literary Society received NED aid between 2000 and 2005 to publish the Bod-Kyi-Dus-Bab (Tibet Times), a Tibetan language newspaper which was founded in 1996 and is published three times a month in Dharamsala, India. In 1998 and 1999 the newspaper itself also received direct support from the NED. Another group to receive NED support is the Tibet Multimedia Center, which received three grants from the NED between 2000 to 2002 to:
“…provide objective information about Tibet for Tibetans in the country and in exile as well as for audiences in China. The center will produce audio and videocassettes, organize debates among Tibetan high school students in exile and publish a Chinese language magazine to educate the Chinese public about the situation in Tibet and the struggle for human rights.”
Between 1999 and 2005 the Tibetan Review Trust Society received four grants to publish the Tibetan Review, a monthly English-language news magazine based in New Delhi, India, “that covers Tibet-related news and analysis.” The Tibetan Review was founded in 1968 and it’s precursor was Lodi G. Gyari’s (see earlier) The Voice of Tibet: in the early 1970s the Tibetan Review was published by Tenzin N. Tethong (who at the time headed the International Campaign for Tibet), and after passing through the hands of a number of other Directors it is now being edited by Pema Thinley (who is the former Executive Editor of Tibetan Bulletin, the “official journal of the Central Tibet Administration of His Holiness the Dalai Lama”).
Finally, in 2001 and 2002, the Voice of Tibet – a Tibetan-language shortwave radio station which was founded in 1996 – obtained NED aid to provide “regular news about Tibet, the Tibetan exile community, and the Tibetan government-in-exile, for listeners in Tibet and in exile in neighboring countries.” According to their website “[e]very day Voice of Tibet broadcasts a 30 minutes news service in the Tibetan language and a 15 minutes news service in Mandarin Chinese.” Voice of Tibet was founded by three Norwegian NGOs; the Norwegian Human Rights House, the Norwegian Tibet Committee and Worldview Rights. The final group is particularly interesting as it is also known as the Points of Peace Foundation, which is a “human rights organisation based in Stavanger, Norway, with a mandate to support Nobel Peace Prize Laureates in urgent need of media, dialogue and communication assistance in their home countries and internationally.” Crucially, the Points of Peace Foundation’s advisory board includes Jose Ramos-Horta, John Hume (who is a former patron of the British version of the NED, the Westminster Foundation for Democracy), Aung San Suu Kyi (who is a member of the international advisory board of the Democracy Coalition Project, and is an honorary director of the International Institute for Democracy and Electoral Assistance), Wangari Maathai (who is a member of the international advisory board of the Democracy Coalition Project, and is a trustee of World Learning), Mairead Corrigan Maguire (who is a member of the international council of advisors for the International Campaign for Tibet), and Muhammad Yunus (who is on the advisory board of Stockholm Challenge, where he sits alongside NED director Esther Dyson, and US Institute for Peace advisory board member John Gage). (Two other groups to receive NED aid for communication work in Tibet since 1990 for which no further information could be ascertained include the Tibet Justice Center (which received a single grant in 2002), and the Tibet Museum (which received NED support in both 2004 and 2005).)
Conclusion
This article has demonstrated the close ties that exist between the Dalai Lama’s non-violent campaign for Tibetan independence and U.S. foreign policy elites who are actively supporting Tibetan causes through the NED. This finding is particularly worrying given the high international media profile of many of the groups exposed in this article, especially when it is remembered that the NED’s activities are intimately linked with those of the CIA. This funding issue is clearly problematic for Tibetan (or foreign) activists campaigning for Tibetan freedom, as the overwhelmingly anti-democratic nature of the NED can only weaken the legitimacy of the claims of any group associated with the NED. In this regard it seems only fitting that progressive activists truly concerned with promoting freedom and democracy in Tibet should first and foremost cast a critical eye over the antidemocratic funders of many of the Tibetan groups identified in this study. Only then will they be able to reappraise the sustainability of their work in the light of the NED’s controversial background. Once this step has been taken, perhaps progressive solutions for restoring democratic governance to Tibet can be generated by concerned activists, so that Tibetan people wanting to reclaim their homeland will able to be more sure that they are bringing democracy home to Tibet, not polyarchy.
Michael Barker is a doctoral candidate at Griffith University, Australia. He can be reached at Michael.J.Barker@griffith.edu.au
07/24/2008 at 5:27 pm
For goodness sake YUGUNG, stop this CIA fixation of yours.
By the way, like many others who are involved in the Free Tibet campaign, we are NOT linked to the Anglo-American alliance, neither are we linked to the CIA.
We are simply sympathetic to the plight of Tibet and we would like to help in any way we can.
You’re going to make yourself ill, if you persist with your CIA fixation.
07/25/2008 at 9:54 am
Sara,
Would you like to tell us the name of your “Free Tibet Campaign”?
07/25/2008 at 6:51 pm
Yugung, of course I don’t mind telling you the name of the Free Tibet Campaign.
There’s no secrecy involved. Many people all over the world are involved in it.
The website is: http://www.freetibet.org/
No doubt you will have something negative to say about it, but that’s to be expected, as to date you have never shown any consideration to the plight of the Tibetans.
07/25/2008 at 9:00 pm
Hi Sara,
I am sure you have heard of Alison Reynolds of the Free Tibet Campaign based in London.
This woman has thick connection with the National Endowment For Democracy (NED) which is a CIA surrogate.
She is now the executive director of the International Tibet Support Network and is funded by the NED.
Remember what I said about the Anglo-American Alliance.
BTW, have you heard of an Organization called the Westminster Foundation For Democracy? No connection with Free Tibet Campaign?
07/25/2008 at 10:00 pm
Yugung,
Whether or not Alison Reynold has connections with NED or not (and no, I haven’t heard of her) there are still thousands of us, across the world, who simply want to help the Tibetans in any way we can, regardless of any NED / CIA connections that others may have.
What you don’t seem to realise (or rather, what you refuse to accept) is the fact that many Tibetans want their independence back.
If both the CCP and chinese citizens treated the Tibetan people in Tibet (especially in the TAR) with respect and allowed them to continue in their Buddhist way of life (which would include speaking about the Dalai Lama freely) then the Tibetans would not be asking for help, to gain independence again.
Sadly, the Tibetans are being tortured, they are told to denounce the Dalai Lama and if they refuse, they are labelled as “splittists” and sent to prison.
It’s absolutely ridiculous - Tibetans are NOT chinese, therefore they are NOT “splittists”.
Unfortunately, little has changed in the CCP since the days of crazy Mao.
07/26/2008 at 8:37 am
Sara,
You have never heard of Alison Reynolds! Like the sheep in the Animal Farms u only know how to parrot what they put in your mouth. You are not alone.
There is another interesting character also from Free Tibet Campaign London. He is Patrick French. Try and read his book. He tells an interesting story of how the Dalai Lama people cooked up “evidence” of Chinese atrocity.
.
07/26/2008 at 11:08 am
Sara,
“If both the CCP and chinese citizens treated the Tibetan people in Tibet (especially in the TAR) with respect and allowed them to continue in their Buddhist way of life (which would include speaking about the Dalai Lama freely) then the Tibetans would not be asking for help, to gain independence again.
Sadly, the Tibetans are being tortured, they are told to denounce the Dalai Lama and if they refuse, they are labelled as “splittists” and sent to prison. ”
No word to say but you go to TAR to see it by yourselve, to see whether Western media and Dalai told you are the real truth. Argument here is unnecessary. Come and find the truth is only thing you can do. It would be more effiencient talk after you have seen the real tibet.
I think even Yugung argued with you in millions of words is not able to convince you in a single word.
Question to think about:
1. Why are most of Chines so stubbornly “brainwashed” even you have provided so many information?
2. Why chinese people always told you that Dalai is lying?
07/26/2008 at 11:43 am
Jason Ding said,
No word to say but you go to TAR to see it by yourselve, to see whether Western media and Dalai told you are the real truth. Argument here is unnecessary. Come and find the truth is only thing you can do. It would be more effiencient talk after you have seen the real tibet.
I think even Yugung argued with you in millions of words is not able to convince you in a single word.
Question to think about:
1. Why are most of Chines so stubbornly “brainwashed” even you have provided so many information?
2. Why chinese people always told you that Dalai is lying?
Robert says:
Right. You want us to go and see it by ourselves. Don’t you realize that foreigners are not allowed to freely travel in Tibet? There are places we cannot go and things that we cannot see. Last time I was there, I was trying to catch a public bus from Lhatse to Tingri so that I could look at Mount Everest. Guess what? Foreigners are NOT allowed on most of the public buses that are heading South towards the Nepalese border. The Chinese government doesn’t want foreigners interacting with the Tibetans because they are afraid of what the foreigners will discover. I also tried to hitch-hike but that did not work either. Why not? Truck drivers were told that week by the Chinese government that they were not allowed to pick up foreign hitch-hikers. Again, the CCP has something to hide. So don’t tell us to go and see for ourselves. I seriously doubt that either you or Yugung have ever stepped foot anywhere near Tibet. You don’t know what it’s like there other than what CCTV feeds to you.
07/26/2008 at 1:57 pm
“Emma on July 12th, 2008 at 11:01 am
MAO TSE-TUNG QUOTES:
“A lie repeated a hundred times becomes the truth.””
Emma,
I have learned so many Mao’s words. But above one is the first time I’ve heard. Mao never said such kind of word in my memory. But I do heard simirlar word from Nazi’s propaganda chief Joseph Goebbels. Someone in Western is trying to forge that one as what Mao told.
I doubt if you have really read the Mao’s words. You can not quote Mao’s word so simply. That was the mistake happened in Culture revolution. Two parties used the same Mao’s work which they didn’t understand fully. They just quoted some words that mao wrote in his works. But the quote may distort Mao’s original terms.
You use the word “Religion is poinson” is an example, if you read the whole article and just to understand this word, this is absolutely wrong. But if put in his article, you may understand what he really means.
I wish if you quote Mao’s word, please read his article and works first to fully understand him. Don’t act as “Red guard” in culture revolution. At lease, I laughed at your ignorance.
07/26/2008 at 2:16 pm
“Have you actually ever been to Tibet? I have. People there were glad to eat my left over breakfast. They did not want money; they wanted food because they were hungry. And I am not talking about Lhasa; I’m talking about deep Tibet. It wouldn’t surprise me in the least if some people there were escaping because they were hungry. ”
Robert,
Have you been to normal Tibet family? Have you been to schools there? Have you been to the museusm? So many places I doubt you haven’t been. You just want to see what you like to see.
Do you think your breakfast is the popular example as Tibet? I could enumerate same example in US and Canada. I have seen so many homeless people there living and sleeping on the street. I gave them the food they were likely to accept because they were hungry. Should I use this as an example to describe western world in the same way you describe in Tibet?
07/26/2008 at 7:15 pm
YUGUNG, you wrote:
There is another interesting character also from Free Tibet Campaign London. He is Patrick French. Try and read his book. He tells an interesting story of how the Dalai Lama people cooked up “evidence” of Chinese atrocity.
Ok Yugung, I will get back to you on this, once I’ve read the book. It will be interesting to read why Patrick French feels that the Dalai Lama cooked up evidence of chinese atrocity, simply because HISTORY says otherwise.
Yugung, you also wrote:
You have never heard of Alison Reynolds! Like the sheep in the Animal Farms u only know how to parrot what they put in your mouth. You are not alone.
Your comment makes me laugh. Just because I’ve never heard of Alison Reynolds, it doesn’t mean I’m like a sheep. and there is plenty of evidence (you only have to look at utube videos, to see what is happening in Tibet).
You refer to Animal Farm, yet don’t you know the book it is a critique on communism?
Animal Farm is about the causes of FAILURE OF COMMUNISM.
It is a tragic story of what happened when the oppressed rebelled.
The rebellion failed, and the oppressed ended up being dictated to by pigs (CCP).
The book explains the horrors of totalitarian regimes and the causes of the unworkability of communism.
In the book, the ‘father of communism’ is an enormous fat pig called Old Major (Mao Zedong).
His motto was “no animal must ever tyrannize over his own kind. Weak or strong, clever or simple, we are all brothers”.
He then created the “Seven Commandments” (Mao’s little red book) which was supposed to ensure equality and prosperity for all the animals.
However, the pigs (Mao and other members of the CCP) managed to reverse the commandments, which is what they intended to do from the beginning, and through terror and propaganda they began to oppress the rest of the animals (chinese citizens).
Animal Farm successfully presents how the mechanism of propaganda and BRAINWASHING works in totalitarian regimes, by showing how the pigs (CCP) could make the other animals believe practically anything.
07/26/2008 at 7:59 pm
@Jason,
You managed to ignore what I wrote and instead reiterated something that I said nearly a month ago. Let’s try to keep this a little current shall we. Here is what I posted earlier today. Did you miss it?
Robert says:
Right. You want us to go and see it by ourselves. Don’t you realize that foreigners are not allowed to freely travel in Tibet? There are places we cannot go and things that we cannot see. Last time I was there, I was trying to catch a public bus from Lhatse to Tingri so that I could look at Mount Everest. Guess what? Foreigners are NOT allowed on most of the public buses that are heading South towards the Nepalese border. The Chinese government doesn’t want foreigners interacting with the Tibetans because they are afraid of what the foreigners will discover. I also tried to hitch-hike but that did not work either. Why not? Truck drivers were told that week by the Chinese government that they were not allowed to pick up foreign hitch-hikers. Again, the CCP has something to hide. So don’t tell us to go and see for ourselves. I seriously doubt that either you or Yugung have ever stepped foot anywhere near Tibet. You don’t know what it’s like there other than what CCTV feeds to you.
Robert adds:
Even though I did make some friends while I was there, it is difficult for a foreigner to make friends with families because we are too afraid of getting them in trouble. It is well known that the government discourages Tibetans from talking to foreigners and that just talking about politics and religion with a Tibetan can mean BIG trouble for them. Tibet is NOT open to foreigners, my friend. We only get to see the tourist areas.
07/26/2008 at 9:13 pm
You’re absolutely right Robert, I too have been to Tibet and it was really difficult to engage in conversation with Tibetans in Lhasa because the chinese military will not allow foreigners to talk to any Tibetans.
When I asked a chinese policeman why we weren’t allowed to talk to the Tibetans, we were told “why do you want to talk to these people? they are barbarians….”
The Tibetans desperately want to talk, you can see it in their eyes and gestures, but they are too afraid to speak out.
We were followed by the chinese police, everywhere we went. One time, when I tripped over a brick on the street, and a lovely Tibetan woman helped me up, a chinese policeman quickly came over and asked me what had I said to the Tibetan woman? When I told him I had said thank you to her, he said “well don’t listen to anything she says”.
I found the Tibetans to be lovely people and the chinese to be arrogant, especially the chinese police / military.
There is NO respect for the Tibetan people from the chinese, it’s about time the chinese left Tibet for good - and the CCP definately have something to hide.
I’ve never been to any country where I’ve been constantly followed and told NOT to talk to the natives.
I sincerely hope that Tibet will one day regain its independence. To see the Tibetans suffering so much, at the hands of the chinese, was almost too much for me and my colleagues.
07/27/2008 at 9:30 am
Sara,
Alison Reynolds was a leading figure in the London based Free Tibet Campaign for years. She appeared in Parlaiment giving “expert” opinions about Tibet years after years.
You have never heard of her and u join the Free Tibet Campaign then you qualify to be a sheep.
07/27/2008 at 9:40 am
Jane said this;
When I asked a chinese policeman why we weren’t allowed to talk to the Tibetans, we were told “why do you want to talk to these people? they are barbarians….”
Yugung:
I have a deep suspicion that you made up the story.
Most Policemen in Tibet are ethnic Tibetans.
Even ethnic Hans police don’t call Tibetan Barbarians, especially to white skin foreigners. They will certainly lose their job if you can prove it.
This is simply not true.
Jane, answer me, do you speak Tibetans or Mandarin?
How did the policeman converse to you. In English?
07/27/2008 at 2:25 pm
Yugung said,
I have a deep suspicion that you made up the story.
Most Policemen in Tibet are ethnic Tibetans.
Even ethnic Hans police don’t call Tibetan Barbarians, especially to white skin foreigners. They will certainly lose their job if you can prove it.
This is simply not true.
Jane, answer me, do you speak Tibetans or Mandarin?
How did the policeman converse to you. In English?
Robert Vance says:
Yes, and manyethnic Tibetan policemen are sent to another part of China to be “re-educated” and come back to Tibet having been brainwashed that they are better than their fellow Tibetans.
While calling Tibetans “barbarians” may be a little extreme, I have definitely heard Han Chinese people where I live say very uncomplimentary things about the Tibetans. This always puzzles me since there are so few Han Chinese who have stepped foot in Tibet. Seriously. Instead of telling us (foreigners who HAVE traveled in Tibet) to go and see for ourselves, why don’t you encourage your fellow Chinese citizens to make a trip there. And don’t tell me that people here can’t afford it. There are plenty of Chinese people going to Thailand, Korea, Japan, and Taiwan for vacation. Why not do a little traveling in their own country? Until they actually go and see for themselves, Chinese people are speaking out of ignorance, not experience when it comes to Tibet.
07/27/2008 at 3:59 pm
RV:
This always puzzles me since there are so few Han Chinese who have stepped foot in Tibet. Seriously. Instead of telling us (foreigners who HAVE traveled in Tibet) to go and see for ourselves, why don’t you encourage your fellow Chinese citizens to make a trip there. And don’t tell me that people here can’t afford it. There are plenty of Chinese people going to Thailand, Korea, Japan, and Taiwan for vacation. Why not do a little traveling in their own country? Until they actually go and see for themselves, Chinese people are speaking out of ignorance, not experience when it comes to
yugung:
Last year 2.9 mil local Chinese tourists visited Tibet VS 326,000 foreign tourists.
Tibet has 20,000 hotel beds. This is an impressive figure. To tour the Potala Palace one has to queue up early morning to get a ticket by noon. How much more tourist can Tibet take?
The educated Chinese are not ignorant or uninterested about Tibet.
07/27/2008 at 4:25 pm
Robert Vance says:
Yes, and manyethnic Tibetan policemen are sent to another part of China to be “re-educated” and come back to Tibet having been brainwashed that they are better than their fellow Tibetans.
While calling Tibetans “barbarians” may be a little extreme, I have definitely heard Han Chinese people where I live say very uncomplimentary things about the Tibetans.
yugung:
Do u think it is possible to brinwashed Tibetans to call other Tibetans barbarians?
Even if that is possible, how is the government going to gain from all these effort?
Have you learn to call ur brothers or sisters “children of turtles” since u lived in China now?
Dicipline in China’s police force is strict. They will lose their jobs for insulting monorities. As for the ordinary folks you met in everyday life, foul language is just a common bad habit. I think the worse negative comment about Tibetans i ve encountered is that they don’t often bath and smell (this is over generalization), not likely anyone will call them Barbarians.
07/27/2008 at 7:04 pm
Yugung,
For the sake of repeating myself: it really is irrelevant whether I know Alison Reynolds, or not. Here in the U.K. there are many charity organisations, and many of us donate money and clothes to these charities, in order to help those less fortunate than us.
I would think that 99% of us don’t actually know who runs these organisations, yet at the same time, we don’t feel we need to. It is enough for us to know that we are helping those who are hungry and poor. As for wanting to help free Tibet, there is much written documentation and video evidence that they are being oppressed by the chinese.
If, by trying to help others, you want to label us as ’sheep’ then so be it.
And let me ask you this: how much do the chinese citizens actually know about the members of the CCP? I suspect they know very little, yet they believe everything the CCP tells them, without question. So who are the real sheep?
07/27/2008 at 7:44 pm
yugung said:
Last year 2.9 mil local Chinese tourists visited Tibet VS 326,000 foreign tourists.
Tibet has 20,000 hotel beds. This is an impressive figure. To tour the Potala Palace one has to queue up early morning to get a ticket by noon. How much more tourist can Tibet take?
The educated Chinese are not ignorant or uninterested about Tibet.
Robert Vance says:
Let’s give those figures you quote a little background shall we? The 2.9 million Chinese tourists that visited Tibet last year is almost up 70 percent from 2006! Before the train, I would venture to say that many Chinese really had no interest in going to Tibet. Why? It was too hard of a journey unless you wanted to shell out 3000 RMB for a plane ticket from Chengdu. I know because I took a 28 hour bus ride from Golmud to Lhasa three days before the first train to Lhasa started running. Not a fun ride. The point is, before last year, there were much fewer Chinese going. Sure, more are going now but walk into a room of Chinese people and ask for a show of hands how many people have actually journyed there and you might see one or two go up if you’re lucky. Relatively speaking, very few people in China have gone to Tibet.
I don’t know any Chinese people who have been to Tibet. Whenever someone argues with me about the situation there I always ask if they have made the journey there. So far, the answer is always no. I am not trying to say that I am an expert on Tibet just because I spent some time there. But it does annoy me when people who have never even been there tell me that “I should go and see for myself” before I talk about Tibet. Well, I’ve been there, have you?
07/27/2008 at 8:23 pm
I have no reason to lie and YES the chinese policeman DID refer to the Tibetan people as ‘barbarians’.
Yugung you said that Tibet has 20,000 hotel beds. This is an impressive figure.
Why do you say this is an impressive figure? I’m puzzled by your statement.
Many of the hotels are actually owned by the chinese, not Tibetans - and Lhasa is nowhere near as nice as it was BEFORE all these hotels were built. It’s like a concrete jungle now.
You also said to tour the Potala Palace one has to queue up early morning to get a ticket by noon.
Did you know that many monks at the Potala Palace are actually chinese, dressed up like Tibetan monks? The REAL Tibetan monks are nowhere to been seen at the Palace.
My colleagues and I didn’t know whether to laugh or cry. Tibetans have completely different facial features to the chinese, yet we were led to believe that these monks were Tibetan.
You also said the educated Chinese are not ignorant or uninterested about Tibet.
Yes they most definately ARE ignorant and uninterested. Yugung and Jason Ding, for example, prove this to be the case.
07/28/2008 at 8:58 am
Jane,
Now, I m even more certain that you are a liar.
U avoided my simple questions. In what language the policeman spoke to you.
It’s not difficult to answer.
07/28/2008 at 10:25 am
Robert Vance says:
Let’s give those figures you quote a little background shall we? The 2.9 million Chinese tourists that visited Tibet last year is almost up 70 percent from 2006! Before the train, I would venture to say that many Chinese really had no interest in going to Tibet. Why? It was too hard of a journey unless you wanted to shell out 3000 RMB for a plane ticket from Chengdu. I know because I took a 28 hour bus ride from Golmud to Lhasa three days before the first train to Lhasa started running. Not a fun ride. The point is, before last year, there were much fewer Chinese going. Sure, more are going now but walk into a room of Chinese people and ask for a show of hands how many people have actually journyed there and you might see one or two go up if you’re lucky. Relatively speaking, very few people in China have gone to Tibet.
I don’t know any Chinese people who have been to Tibet. Whenever someone argues with me about the situation there I always ask if they have made the journey there. So far, the answer is always no. I am not trying to say that I am an expert on Tibet just because I spent some time there. But it does annoy me when people who have never even been there tell me that “I should go and see for myself” before I talk about Tibet. Well, I’ve been there, have you?
yugung:
The train brought in about 10,000 people a day.
Before the contruction of of the railroad, the planes and the road transport can only bring in several thousand tourists a day. There is a infrastructural limitation.
U can’t therefore draw the conclusion that people are uninterested in Tibet.
Many people have been to Tibet. I ve been there.
In fact Tibet is high on the “must visit” list only to be limited by the difficulty in getting train tickets during the summer tourist season .
07/28/2008 at 10:57 am
Jane:
Many of the hotels are actually owned by the chinese, not Tibetans - and Lhasa is nowhere near as nice as it was BEFORE all these hotels were built. It’s like a concrete jungle now.
yugung:
Most of the big hotels are owned by the govermnet. The profit goes to the people.
Health care, education are heavily subsidized.
There are numerous “bed and breakfast” facilities run by local Tibetans. They are making good money
Jane told more lies:
You also said to tour the Potala Palace one has to queue up early morning to get a ticket by noon.
Did you know that many monks at the Potala Palace are actually chinese, dressed up like Tibetan monks? The REAL Tibetan monks are nowhere to been seen at the Palace.
My colleagues and I didn’t know whether to laugh or cry. Tibetans have completely different facial features to the chinese, yet we were led to believe that these monks were Tibetan.
yugung:
absolute rubbish!
There has been generations of intermariages, it is not always possible to distinguish Hans or Hui from Tibetans. U have exceptional skill in making up stories “wu che”.
Here is a well known Tibetan singer.
http://img.verycd.com/posts/0610/post-413306-1160467045.jpg
Anybody can honestly tell by her look that she is Tibetan?
Jane need not answer my question.
07/28/2008 at 5:45 pm
http://blog.sina.com.cn/pubajia
Yes. Another example, could anyone tell if he is Hans or Tibetan?
Actually I didn’t notice he is from Tibetan at the time I saw him on the TV show.
07/28/2008 at 6:11 pm
China has a idiom “疑邻盗斧” (yi lin dao fu).
Says that at the earlier time, a farmer lost his axe. He doubted that the son of his neighbor’s stole it. So everyday he watched the action of that young man. The more he watched, the more he confirmed that this young has stolen the axe. Several days later, he found that axe. After that, he watched the neighbor’s son again, this time he could find any action that this young man did looked like thief any more.
This idiom is now very suitbale for some westeners on the Tibetan issue. I wish that please don’t be “疑邻盗斧” too much.
07/28/2008 at 6:50 pm
Yugung said,
absolute rubbish!
There has been generations of intermariages, it is not always possible to distinguish Hans or Hui from Tibetans. U have exceptional skill in making up stories “wu che”.
Here is a well known Tibetan singer.
http://img.verycd.com/posts/0610/post-413306-1160467045.jpg
Anybody can honestly tell by her look that she is Tibetan?
Jane need not answer my question.
@Yugung,
Han Hong is my all time favorite singer in China. A Chinese friend was just telling me today how “Han” Han Hong looks. I agree. I would never have guessed that she was Tibetan; actually I probably would have never guessed that she was a singer either unless I had heard her beautiful voice.
Still, considering that Han Hong left Tibet in her early childhood to go to Beijing, I am not sure that she is the best example. I love her music though!
07/28/2008 at 6:56 pm
@Robert,
Although you have been there, you just limited your experience as tourist place and didn’t talk with people, you didn’t really want to tell the landscape and the free market but interesting on how you gave your breakfast to the people to conclude that people there are to poor to buy the breakfast in order to satisfy your presumption that Tibetan people are still very poor under the rule of cruel Chinese government ruling. You didn’t want to go the museum because you had totally no interesting because you think it’s propaganda of Chinese government. You went there only trying to find something that western media told you like your story of breakfast.
Although TAR may be not fully free of foreign tourists, it could not prevent any foreigners to find the true life of tibetans. Because outside the TAR, there are so many tibetan living areas in Gansu, Xichuan and Yunan. There is no restriction there. Please notice that Dalai claimed persecution happened not just restricted in TAR, it’s described the whole area of Tibetan living. I was in southern Gansu in 2005, where the temple also involved in riot of this march. I have seen some foreigners visiting those areas by themselves and didn’t see any policeman watching them and in a town there is westernized bar, it’s free for everyone there to talk any topics. So if you really want to know the tibetan life, why not go there.
But I think most of important thing for you is to put off your colored glass. Don’t be so “疑邻盗斧” too much.
07/28/2008 at 7:06 pm
Tibetan or Hans:
http://photo.sina.com.cn/photo/49cdf07a44b70ea8617ae
07/28/2008 at 7:33 pm
For your understanding convinient:
http://www.iqfree.com/video_KDWT46E53-Y.html
07/28/2008 at 7:43 pm
Jason said,
Although you have been there, you just limited your experience as tourist place and didn’t talk with people, you didn’t really want to tell the landscape and the free market but interesting on how you gave your breakfast to the people to conclude that people there are to poor to buy the breakfast in order to satisfy your presumption that Tibetan people are still very poor under the rule of cruel Chinese government ruling. You didn’t want to go the museum because you had totally no interesting because you think it’s propaganda of Chinese government. You went there only trying to find something that western media told you like your story of breakfast.
Robert says,
You are right. I do have limited experience. But the experience that I have in Tibet is much more than most people I know in China (or even on this board) who speak so confidently about Tibet yet have never been there before.
I do recall that as I was walking down the long ‘ramp’ after having toured the Potala Palace that a young Tibetan college student approached me and started talking to me in English. I still have him on videotape in fact. Oh did I want to ask him some questions. I probably could have learned a lot from him. I was afraid to have more than a general conversation with him though because again, foreign tourists to China are warned NOT to discuss politics with Tibetan people. But I guess you’d have to be a foreigner to know that. As I have stated before, even if I did want to really ‘find out’ what is going on in Tibet, I would be too afraid of getting someone in trouble. You can blame that on your paranoid government.
Jason said,
Although TAR may be not fully free of foreign tourists, it could not prevent any foreigners to find the true life of tibetans. Because outside the TAR, there are so many tibetan living areas in Gansu, Xichuan and Yunan. There is no restriction there.
Robert says,
Again, the experience that a CHINESE person is going to have in Tibet and in the Tibetan areas outside of the TAR are much different than the experience that a foreign person has., You are wrong. There ARE cities in Yunnan and Sichuan that are OFF limits to foreigners. I know of foreigners personally who have been kicked out of cities that they were not allowed to be in. In fact, it is ILLEGAL for a foreigner to enter Tibet through Yunnan or Sichuan by land. Did you know that? And bus drivers who are caught transporting foreigners illegally have been beatened and fined. But I’m sure you’ll accuse me of making that up. Just look around on the internet and see what dozens of foreign tourists are saying about Tibet if you don’t believe me.
This is a very big source of conflict on many of the posts that are on this website. Foreigners have a completely different experience than Chinese people when they are living here. Contrary to what you may believe, not all foreigners are liars. The information that we share about Tibet is to help other foreigners who are traveling to the region, not because we have some anti-China political agenda in mind.
07/28/2008 at 9:05 pm
Please click here to see the link
That’s the places I have visited. I have seen some foreigners there. I didn’t see policeman following them. I guess there are not enough policemen to monitor so many foreigners.
I have visited “拉卜楞寺” and “郎木寺” (2 temples in Southern Gansu). The foreigners there I have seen are not accompanied by the tourist group. Mostly just 2 or 3 traveling by themselves. And my seeing is quite different from what you thought. Also I have seen some foreigners writing articles about the area which has no problems talking with Tibetan.
From this topic, what I have seen that you are criticizing the Chinese politic in Tibet but you told me you were telling only the traveling for foreigners in this region. Is it conflict?
07/28/2008 at 9:14 pm
Wish your friends helping you translating the following words:
http://www.xici.net/b146480/d33371376.htm
傍晚时分，我们到了朗木寺。海拔接近四千米。
这里外国人比汉人多，到处是英文和藏文。这里的藏民和回民都会简单的英文，连光屁股的小孩在路上见到陌生人都会喊：hello hello。餐馆里做的最拿手的居然是西餐。晚上，我们在一家叫莉莎的餐厅打了一顿牙祭，据说这家餐厅在网上的名气很大。餐馆的墙上贴的都是各国游客留下的钱币和留言，装饰的风格和用具也是“美国西部牛仔”的味道。驴友喜欢的餐厅，原来是这样，我是第一从见到，不过我很喜欢。尤其是屋子中间的大炉子，给人家的感觉。我们到时候，已经有一些老外在那儿仿佛津津有味地吃饭天南海北地吹牛了。我们一行人也不例外，一桌西餐，一箱beer（在老外面前就得用英语），我们也party了。大家很兴奋，声音很大，老外几次向我们侧目。我们不以为然，因为这在咱中国，自然是有些放肆了。晚餐的口味很地道，薯条这个饼那个派 还有一锅鲜美的土豆牛肉，我都喜欢，尤其那醇香的牛肉味，在我的脑海里绕梁三日，挥之不去，印象之深好比临夏的手抓羊肉。
07/28/2008 at 9:36 pm
Robert,
Please browse down, you will see a picture of youth hotel poster, From there, you could see there are several English posters. Do you feel that the foreigners are forbidden from this area? ( I did eat at that youth hotel by myself and saw the foreigners posting while I was eating)
Please click here to see the link
07/28/2008 at 9:59 pm
@Jason,
Look, these links are interesting (and a bit disgusting if you happened to look at the pictures of the severed limbs in a burial place) but they don’t really prove anything. I didn’t say the whole of Tibet or Tibetan areas are closed off to foreigners. I myself made it to Mount Everest from Gansu (not with any help from locals though who told me it was forbidden for foreigners to board a public bus South of Lhatse). But, there are parts of the TAR (and Tibetan cities outside of the TAR) that are closed off to foreigners. This is according to widespread accounts on the Internet from foreign travelers like me who have been turned away. I also know people personally who have been told to get out of the city ‘before sundown’ because it wasn’t open to foreigners. I was just trying to point out that you might call these foreigners liars but why would they lie? Foreigners who tell such stories on the Internet are only trying to help other foreign travelers out, they do not have a political agenda.
Truth be told, I have nothing personally against the police in Tibet. I always found them to be very helpful and kind and really I can say the same for any police that I have encountered in China. I am fortunate to have a few personal friends who are in the police department in the city where I work. I have never been followed by the police to my knowledge. However, I am not going to discount stories that other foreigners (such as Sara) tell about what is going on in Tibet or what the police are doing there…
07/28/2008 at 10:03 pm
Robert,
The following is from the photographer, taking pictures around the area of “拉卜楞寺”. Also there is a ritrus. Each pictue there is Chinese explanation about it . Wish you really understand Chinese. While I looked at those pic, I felt I was back to there again.
http://www.cameraunion.net/forum/showarchives.php?threadid=169338
07/28/2008 at 10:12 pm
同行的人还有Feifei,Luster,Dudu,Topsoil，路上时不时加入一些新驴友，还有以色列的一位朋友，我们给他取了个中文名，阿丹。
This is from the above link: I translated here to you:
The other travlers were Feifei,Luster,Dudu,Topsoil, on the way, there were other new travelers joining us, especially a friend from Israel, we gave him a chinese name “阿丹”.
As you have seen that there are so many blogs articles supporting my point that foreigners are free to visit this area.
07/28/2008 at 10:31 pm
@Robert,
I know it’s true that it’s not totally free for foreigners to visit Tibet.
But your topic here is “What the Torch on Mount Everest Means for the Tibetan People”, pointing to persecution and culture genocide of chinese government against Tibetan people. But actually we think your points is wrong.
And someone like Jane thought that the monks in the Potola are Hans Chinese, acting as Tibetan are totally ridiculous. That’s because she didn’t want to take off her colored glass as you did in Tibet.
So there are some places in China where Tibetan lives and Dalai claimed that Tibetans there are persecuted by government too. So most of you could go there to find the truth, why saying it’s no way to find the truth and always criticizing the Chinese government. T
07/28/2008 at 10:38 pm
“(and a bit disgusting if you happened to look at the pictures of the severed limbs in a burial place) but they don’t really prove anything.”
@Robert,
It’s the normal “heaven burial” （天葬). I have visited there too, it’s disgusting for us. But for tibetan, it’s their tradition.
07/28/2008 at 10:42 pm
Jason said,
So there are some places in China where Tibetan lives and Dalai claimed that Tibetans there are persecuted by government too. So most of you could go there to find the truth, why saying it’s no way to find the truth and always criticizing the Chinese government.
Robert says,
I feel like you have missed the whole point again. Foreigners do not have the freedom to go and ’snoop’ around in Tibet. We realize that having political discussions with Tibetan people could get them in serious trouble. Let’s just take that point for a moment…do you deny that Tibetans are NOT supposed to have political discussions with foreigners?
07/28/2008 at 11:24 pm
Jane said this;
When I asked a chinese policeman why we weren’t allowed to talk to the Tibetans, we were told “why do you want to talk to these people? they are barbarians….”
@Jane,
Even what you said is true, it’s the personal comment, not the government view. We couldnot conclude that US government has an tyrant government becuase several policemen in LA beaten the black Americans. We could conclude that US army is the barbarian army in the world because several soldier did ugly tortures against the Iraq prisons. Unless the government representative told you about that, you could make your conclusion.
Please think in a comprehensive method instead of just simply.
07/28/2008 at 11:25 pm
Jane said this;
When I asked a chinese policeman why we weren’t allowed to talk to the Tibetans, we were told “why do you want to talk to these people? they are barbarians….”
@Jane,
Even what you said is true, it’s the personal comment, not the government view. We couldnot conclude that US government has an tyrant government becuase several policemen in LA beaten the black Americans. We could NOT conclude that US army is the barbarian army in the world because several soldier did ugly tortures against the Iraq prisons. Unless the government representative told you about that, you could make your conclusion.
Please think in a comprehensive method instead of just simply.
07/29/2008 at 2:45 am
Yugung you said I’m a liar because I didn’t say whether I could speak mandarin or not. I see…. thanks very much. I will now answer your question, no I don’t speak mandarin and the chinese policeman who spoke briefly to me, spoke in broken English. I hope this answers your question sufficiently. Don’t be so quick to judge!!
You also said many of the hotels are owned by the government - yes, that’s right, the CHINESE government, with most of the profits going back to CHINA. As for health-care in Tibet, it is a well known FACT that Tibetan women are being sterilised (by force) and it is also a well known FACT that Tibetans pay considerably MORE for their health-care, than the chinese who live in Tibet.
And as for saying that there has been generations of intermariages in Tibet, you are wrong. Totally wrong.
Where’s your proof? Where’s your statistics? There’s just no way that a Tibetan would WILLINGLY marry a chinese. I don’t believe it.
Are you saying that, since 1951, Tibetans and chinese have lived together in harmony in Tibet, and that the CCP would allow a Tibetan and a chinese to marry? Are you saying that, once they are married and have children, that some of these male children go on to become Monks and the CCP are ok about this?
And YES it is VERY easy to distinguish chinese people from Tibetans. The Tibetans LOOK different, their clothes are different, their language is different, their NATIONAL FLAG is different, their culture is different.
Above all else, the Tibetans are BUDDHISTS, not paranoid Communists.
You can’t possibly expect Buddhists to co-exist with communists harmoniously. Buddhism preaches compassion - and communism preaches paranoia and hate.
I can’t believe you have really been to Tibet yugung. I think you are an outright liar!!
07/29/2008 at 8:36 am
MIXED MARRIAGES IN TIBET
Jane, although I have not yet been to Tibet (I hope to go one day, via India) I have just finished a fascinating book about Tibet and I remember reading that the CCP actually hires chinese men to dress up as Tibetan monks, for the sake of tourists who wish to look around the Potala Palace and other Tibetan temples. So it doesn’t surprise me in the least, that you have seen this to be the case.
Apparently, according to yugung, one cannot tell the difference between a Tibetan and a chinese person, and I guess this is why the CCP think they can get away with it.
Where the real Tibetan monks are, I don’t know. Do you have any idea?
According to yugung, there have been many mixed marriages in Tibet for decades, which is why the monks at the Potala look chinese!!
Picture the scene: A Tibetan woman marries a chinese man in Lhasa. How they communicate, I have no idea, but let’s say they can somehow understand each other’s language. So every day, the Tibetan wife practices Buddhism openly and freely, and says prayers for the Dalai Lama, whilst her Communistic husband sits there, in the same room, simply accepting the fact that his wife is a Buddhist, not a communist.
After a year or so, they have a son. He cannot be brought up as both a Buddhist and a communist, since the two ‘beliefs’ conflict with each other enormously, so it’s been decided he will be brought up as a Buddhist - and this leads to their son wanting to become a monk.
His communistic father has no problem with this, and so off goes the son to live with other monks in the grounds of the Potala Palace. And if asked by a tourist, why he looks chinese and not Tibetan, he answers “I am of mixed race…”
End of story.
Yugung likes to make up fairy-tales, it’s as simple as that.
07/29/2008 at 9:08 am
Jane invented more lies inorder to cover up her previous lie and said this:
…. no I don’t speak mandarin and the chinese policeman who spoke briefly to me, spoke in broken English. I hope this answers your question sufficiently. Don’t be so quick to judge!!
yugung:
If as you said the police were so paranoid about foreigners talking to Tibetans would they use such term as “barbarians” in front of foreigners. Moreover “barbarian” is a long word to learn for someone who only managed to speak broken English.
You lied again.
07/29/2008 at 10:59 am
Jane repeating a lie invented by the Americans:
Tibetan women are being sterilised (by force)
yugung:
The American did that to the Native women and being very creative they decided to rewrite those stories and grafted those sins on to the Chinese and get their British lap dogs to spread those lies for them.
Fortunately there was an American Professor of Anthropoligy who actually investigated these allegations.
Excerpt:
TIBET
Mother & Child
By David Murphy/BEIJING
December 27, 2001 Far Eastern Economic Review
THE IMAGE OF Chinese Communist Party cadres forcing birth control, sterilization and abortion on Tibetan women has contributed to the rage of a generation of human-rights activists in the West.
But according to a new study led by Mel Goldstein, director of the Centre of Research on Tibet, at Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland, Ohio, changing socio-economic circumstances and a more active family-planning campaign by authorities are the driving factors behind a desire for smaller families in the Tibet Autonomous Region, or TAR. These reasons and “not forced abortions and sterilizations” determine family size, he says.
The study, to be published in the China Journal in Australia in January, “highlights the dangers of using refugee reports and anecdotal evidence to interpret highly politicized situations,” say Goldstein
—————
07/29/2008 at 11:09 am
Jane:
Above all else, the Tibetans are BUDDHISTS, not paranoid Communists.
yugung: The Dalai Lama claimed that he is half monk half Marxist.
07/29/2008 at 11:35 am
Sara:
Picture the scene: A Tibetan woman marries a chinese man in Lhasa. How they communicate, I have no idea, but let’s say they can somehow understand each other’s language. So every day, the Tibetan wife practices Buddhism openly and freely, and says prayers for the Dalai Lama, whilst her Communistic husband sits there, in the same room, simply accepting the fact that his wife is a Buddhist, not a communist.
yugung:
It looks like u have read the wrong book about Tibet. Try go to the nonfiction section of the libriary u may have better luck there.
Younger generation of Tibetans speak mandarin and Han Chinese who grew up in Tibet speak Tibetan. Which ever language they choose they will be ok.
As for religion there are many Han Bhuddists and Tibetan Communists.
07/29/2008 at 4:56 pm
Yugung, it was YOU who said that there are mixed marriages in Tibet, and I was being sarcastic when I wrote about ‘picture the scene’.
Of course it’s FICTION. I was trying to make you see the absurdity of your comment re. monks in the Potala can be chinese because of mixed marriages.
I don’t have the time to write anything further just yet, but I will soon because you are WRONG on quite a few issues.
In the meantime, perhaps you can tell us about the time you supposedly went to Tibet. What did you hope to gain from the experience?
07/29/2008 at 8:32 pm
“do you deny that Tibetans are NOT supposed to have political discussions with foreigners?”
@Robert,
I should say I haven’t been to Lhasa yet. I could not answer this question as I have no experience there.
But I do confirm in Southern Gansu there is no risk for foreigners to talk with local Tibetan. It’s not sensitive area like Lhasa. Foreigners are totally free there. The key point I think perhaps is the language issue, I think few tibetan is able to speak in English, some of them are unable to talk in mandarin.
@Jane,
You said some tibetan wanna talk with you. Are you sure that guy is really able to talk with you in your language? If not, think about what’s purpose he approched you to talk. Wanna complain with you about the persercution? Is it possible?
Robert told us that he met with a Tibetan college students and talked without getting any trouble, but he didn’t want to talk with the tibetan further to avoid the trouble of that boy as described by your media.
Another question is if you could really distinguish a policemen from other kind of uniform? There are lots of uniform which is similar to the policemen’s.
Is it possible that the tibetan was going to sell something to you in the high price and the adminstrator know those guys and prevent them from being the victim of high price? Is it possible that guy could not find right english word to describe such kind of street seller, only finding the word as “barbarian” to you. And you took it as an example of “foreigners don’t allow to talk with local”.
I have seen several journalist like “Blume” who was able to talk with local tibetan and made reports to the world. Why did she allow to talk with local tibetan?
There were resturants and hotels where lots of tibetan work there. I don’t believe you have to find a Hans serviceman for check out.
07/29/2008 at 8:45 pm
http://baike.baidu.com/view/81920.htm
@ Jane and Sara,
If you are able to read this articles in Chinese, please read it. If not , please ask some people to help you.
This guy was the famous comdic actor. His father is Tibetan and Mother is Han. He was really a highest talent young man and everyone in China know about him. Unfortunately, he died of traffic accident.
To find this for you just tell you there do have some mixed marriage. Please don’t be so ignorant. The mixed marriage has the long history tracing back to Tang dynasty.
07/29/2008 at 8:52 pm
“says prayers for the Dalai Lama, whilst her Communistic husband sits there, in the same room, simply accepting the fact that his wife is a Buddhist, not a communist.”
@Sara,
It’s popular in China that 1 family member is communist party, the other is christian or budahism.
Please don’t so ignorant. Your talk seems out of date and perhaps is based on western sociaty culture that both husband and wife have to be in the same belief. In asian culture, it’s different.
07/29/2008 at 9:19 pm
@Jason,
Next time you do go to Tibet, try carrying a large framed photograph of the Dalai Lama with you and see what happens. My guess is you’ll be thrown out of the province (and probably out of the country if you’re a foreigner). I once met a foreigner who told me that he snuck a small picture of the Dalai Lama into Tibet and had a chance to show it (in secret of course) to a few Tibetans which he came into contact with. They immediately fell on their knees and began kissing the photograph with tears in their eyes. You see, Tibetans are not allowed to have photographs of their spiritual leader. Being caught with one can mean imprisonment, beating, and worse. How would you characterize that? I would say its called religious persecution, wouldn’t you?
07/29/2008 at 10:19 pm
@Robert,
Do you think it’s all the fault of Chinese government? Dalai always lied to world that Chinese government massacred millions tibetan, seeked for independence and made more troubles in Tibet (although he denied that). From 1959 to 1980, the two sides were totally enemy(and Dalai has support from CIA). After 1980s, there were some contacts, but still in enemy situation. If Dalai still lied to the world and the Tibet Youth Organization continued to make more riots, this situation will not be changed a lot. This is more political issue than the religious issue.
If the organization like Sara’s trying to help Tibetan for independence, that means they are putting fuel on the fire. It would be wise for them to stop such kind of lose-lose action.
08/07/2008 at 6:31 am
For Jason Ding,
Why shouldn’t many of us help the Tibetan people in any way we can? why do you say we are putting fuel on the fire? Do you think we should just leave the CCP to continue to destroy Tibetan culture and forget about human-rights abuses in Tibet?
And the Dalai Lama did NOT lie about the fact millions of Tibetans were massacred by the chinese - it happened Jason and that’s a FACT.
And if Mao Tse-Tung can quite happily murder millions of his own people (from 1956 onwards) then why can’t you believe and accept he also murdered millions of Tibetans as well?
Yugung said that the 17 point agreement was signed simply to avoid further blood-shed. Blood-shed from whom exactly?
08/07/2008 at 7:44 am
Yugung,
(1) Why do you think the Tibetan people want independence again?
(2) Why do you think many Tibetans are risking their lives leaving Tibet and going to India?
(3) You said most Tibetans leaving Tibet are going to India to study English. Why aren’t they going to China to study English instead?
(4) Please provide up to date proof / evidence of mixed marriages between Tibetan Buddhists and Chinese Communists.
(5) If there is no religious freedom in China (Fact) where is your proof that religious freedom exists today in Tibet?
(6) Why does the CCP impose restrictions on the internet? and why ban some websites? Why can’t chinese citizens read what they want?
(7) Why don’t the Chinese military in Tibet want foreigners talking freely to Tibetans in Lhasa?
(8) Why do the CCP and chinese citizens say that the Dalai Lama is a splittist, when he is not chinese?
(4) When were you in Tibet? Why did you go and what did you learn from your experience?
08/07/2008 at 11:59 am
Sara,
I think you didn’t use your mind to think about the figures. Try to think about things independently instead of blind believe. You could see you have a warm heart and have sympathy on those who you believe they are suffering. But please don’t be utilized at your sympathy by someone who sold you lies.
Here is the link in wiki to show how the 1million massacre is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Tibet_(1950%E2%80%931951)#cite_note-52
Dalai claimed: 433,000 died in military action. you could try to find material how many Tibetan armies totally have even in the full edge, please note military action never been quoted as “Massacre”, that’s the common sense), Do you believe it’s possible that so many Tibetan were able to die in the military action? Use your head to think about. Famine and suicide is also not classified as massacre. And all of figures here are totally doubtful.
Even western scholars questioned about that. See below:
[edit] Tibetans
Samdhong Rinpoche, the 14th Dalai Lama, and other Tibetans in exile have accused the PRC government of a campaign of terror which led to the destruction of monasteries and disappearance of up to 1.2 million Tibetans. By 1962 only 70 of the original 2,500 monasteries in the Tibet Autonomous Region were left and 93% of the monks were forced out. The “1.2 million” figure for deaths since 1950 dates to a figure from the Tibetan Government-in-exile which they break down to 433,000 through military action, 343,000 through famine, 173,000 through imprisonment, 157,000 through execution, 93,000 through torture and 9,000 through suicide.[33]
The high casualty reported by the Tibetans has been questioned by western scholars. Tom Grunfeld finds that the figure is “without documentary evidence.”[34] According to Patrick French, a supporter of the Tibetan cause who was able to view the data and calculations, the estimate is not reliable. French says this total was based on refugee interviews, but when he examined the raw data, he found no names, but “the insertion of seemingly random figures into each section, and constant, unchecked duplication.”[35] Prior to 1950, population figures for Tibet, estimated by the Lhasa government and foreign visitors, generally ranged from 1 to 1.5 million. The official Tibetan census in 1953 only recorded a population of 1,273,969.[32]
A document allegedly sourced to the PLA claims 87,000 deaths in the 1959-60 period.[36]
08/07/2008 at 12:12 pm
Sara said:
“Why shouldn’t many of us help the Tibetan people in any way we can? why do you say we are putting fuel on the fire?”
@ Sara,
Even Dalai at open site said that he pursued not for independence and he wanna autonomy. “Don’t pursue independence” is the baseline or prerequisite of Chinese goverment for peace talk. But you are still helping them for independence. Do you think your action can be any helpful for the peace talk. I think it only increases tension. That’s why I said your action only puts the fuel on the fire.
Please try to find the way of win-win instead of lose-lose.
08/07/2008 at 9:59 pm
Jason,
Yes it is true that the Dalai Lama is asking for ‘autonomy’ rather than ‘independence’ but only because the Dalai Lama knows that the CCP will never allow complete independence. So the next best thing would be for Tibet to become autonomous.
The frustration and anger from the Tibetans are simply because the CCP refuse to talk to the Dalai Lama about autonomy and about human right abuses.
The CCP will have you believe that it is the Dalai Lama who is refusing to talk to them, but this is not true. The Dalai Lama has asked time and again for talks to take place.
As for saying that helping the Tibetans increases tension, what else can we do? We can’t ignore the fact that human rights abuse is going on in Tibet. If we ignored this, what type of people would we be?
And if the CCP didn’t have anything to hide, why do they continually restrict and ban internet sites? The chinese citizens should be allowed to read and view what they want on the internet - and if they were allowed freedom, I think many of them would change their mind about Tibet and show some sympathy.
08/08/2008 at 5:03 am
Jason,
The obvious win-win situation would be for the CCP to give autonomy to the Tibetans NOW - and then the Tibetans would be able to live as they did BEFORE the 1950’s invasion and there would be no reason for them to fight anymore for a ‘free tibet’.
Both the Dalai Lama and all the other exiled Tibetans in the world could return to Tibet and China would be seen by the rest of the world as doing something good for Tibet.
And Jason, let me ask you this: If human rights abuse goes on in China (which it most definately does) then why can’t you accept that human rights abuse is also going on in Tibet?
For example, in preparation for the Olympics, many chinese people in Beijing were made homeless. Although they were given a bit of money for vacating their home, it was not enough to buy another home - and of course they can’t complain to anyone about it - so what has happened to these people? Where are they now? and if this is not a violation of human rights, then what is?
China’s motto for the Beijing Olympics: ‘One world, one dream’ - what is YOUR interpretation of this?
08/08/2008 at 12:47 pm
“For example, in preparation for the Olympics, many chinese people in Beijing were made homeless.”
@Sara,
Let me ask you if you hear the other sites story about this issue? I think you never did. Do you think it’s proper to jump into conclusion just based on single side report?
I could see most of the problems you have mentioned are mangifisized by western media and you just bought all of these stories.
I’m in China. I could see the effort that Chinese government have made to achieve “one world, one dream”. Also some actions have been taken are based on Chinese culture. Based on western culture, it sounds like unneccessary and not proepr. But from most of Chineses, it sounds correct.
I could see many big steps that Chinese government has worked on improving human rights and media freedom.
The win-win solution should not be to return the system before 1950s which most of Tibetan suffered as serf(I know you don’t believe serfdom existed there at that time)
It should be that Chinese government and Dalai reliquish the status of hostile and make a peaceful talk practically based on the most of Tibetan people’s interesting and current situation. The aim should be realistic and constructive. Don’t be based on some unreachable dream. That’s the win-win solution.
08/10/2008 at 4:35 am
Jason,
I think because you are in China, you can’t access many things on the internet, but I will send you a link on utube (youtube) which clearly shows the chinese citizens complaining about their home being destroyed for the olympics.
Also, I have copied this for you to read:
Million displaced by Beijing Olympics, 40,000 jailed!
Gleaming and amazing, China’s £200million Olympics stadium is shown to the world as a proud symbol of the country’s dramatic change.
But two million people driven from their homes for this summer’s Beijing Games could tell a different story… if they were allowed to speak freely.
A tale of how their lives have been ruined for the sake of their rulers’ Olympic dream.
Of how their houses have been torn down with just a month’s notice.
And how those who have dared to complain have been tortured and jailed.
More than 40,000 people have been arrested for organising protests at the way lives in China’s capital have been destroyed. Many have been treated brutally by police.
And more than 200,000 have had to live on the streets while they seek a new home - in towns and cities miles from their old ones.
Last night Amnesty International protested to the Chinese Embassy in London over the treatment of citizens such as Ye Guozhu, evicted with his wife and son.
He was told their home was to be razed to make way for a park to beautify the capital for the Games. There was no offer of compensation and no advice on where they could live. Ye, 38, began planning a 10,000-strong protest.
When the police learned of the plan, Ye was arrested and beaten unconscious. He woke up in a grubby cell.
When Ye refused to admit he was guilty of stirring unrest, he was beaten and tortured with electric batons, then bound to a chair for 23 hours a day. He finally “confessed” and was jailed for four years.
Ye’s 17-year-old son, Ye Mingjun, said: “We have filed appeals against his sentence but the court always refuses to accept the case as they say my father must sign the papers in person. But he can’t - he is in jail and we have no contact with him.”
Six months ago, 200 men and women due to be evicted for the Games chained themselves to their homes. All were sent to “labour re-education camps” for five weeks.
The scandal of China’s displaced millions is just one of many human rights failures in a country likely to be the world’s biggest economy by 2020.
Last month it was revealed how the one-child policy in China was leading to forced sterilisations, with children being sold by traffickers and parents who dared to break the rule being beaten.
And last week movie director Steven Spielberg quit as the Games’ artistic director in protest at China’s failure to act over the brutality in Darfur, Sudan - whose leaders it supports. China also carries out more executions than any other country - more than 7,000 a year.
But the story of Chinese citizens losing their homes has remained largely unheard as the government tries to silence dissent.
Three people are reported to have died campaigning for justice - but experts say the number is likely to be far higher.
Amnesty International director Tim Hancock said: “China promised that hosting the Olympics would improve human rights.
“But people have lost their homes and their livelihoods to make way for Olympic venues. Those who complain have lost their liberty too.”
Beijing 2008
Protester was beaten unconscious and tortured with electric baton
200 who chained themselves to homes were sent to labour camp
Thousands left with nowhere to go have to live on the streets
08/10/2008 at 4:39 am
Jason,
Here is the utube (youtube) link: Please look at it. First it is in English, and then you will hear what the chinese people are saying (in chinese language - of course).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ku8UVlWKdwE
08/10/2008 at 8:44 pm
Sara,
“But two million people driven from their homes for this summer’s Beijing Games could tell a different story… if they were allowed to speak freely.”
Think about the concept of 2million, do you knwo the whole population of Beijing, where do most of people live? 2milliong means 1/7th area has been relocated, use your common sense to think about it. Please don’t just believe all of what you heard without your judgement. I tell you this number definetely is the lie.
There are some people who are unhappy with their compensation. They want much higher than what government gave. That happened everywhere. It’s not the simple human right’s issue. It’s the economic compensation issue. Some people at last resorted to use extreme method. But don’t think all of pepople don’t satisfiy.
Totally what you told me is normal way that Western media exaggrated the situation. Most of the story was told by the “victims” themselves.
I think you may first try to convince me where you get this “2 million people”. How could this figure be forged out?
You said “Thousands left with nowhere to go have to live on the streets”, I could tell you this could not happen in China. Think about whether China is so silly to leave so many people without home to let your western countries regarding as “Easy Target”? Even this doens’t happen, it is still utilized by your western media.
We could see more media, both in English and Chinese. We could use our own judgement to make the conclusion. But how about you? You only get the message from western sociaty. You don’t understand Chinese culture. You just believe all of western media and Amnesty’s stories, never make any question about their report.
Ask you again if you still believe that 1.2million Tibetan were masscared by Chinese governemt?
I wish you learn more Chinese culture and if possible, learn Chinese to read in Chinese by yourself so that you are not easily to be fooled by your media.
If possible, please come to China to have a look. You will find lots of things different from what you read from your media.
For example, he could talk with one tibetan college student in Tibetan, but he feared talking with him about polictical because he didn’t put him in danger as he heard from your media. (In fact, currently most of Chinese policemen don’t understand Englsih at all, how could be any dangerous there). Robert also told that foreigners also could rent a driver and a car to go to everest mountain. At that time, only Tibetan and Foreigners, how could they be unable to talk in any topic?
So I recommend that once you are in China, first of all you should do is to put off your colored glass to look at the China.
If you think I was brainwashed, you may talk with oversea Chinese and let them see the reports you have.
08/10/2008 at 10:13 pm
@Sara,
To correct you one concept that “Chinese cann’t access the other western website”. Actually most of people can if he knows the way to deal with it.
There are enough proxy server which allows to bypass.
Most company server is able to access the outside internet.
So in the future, please don’t still image that Chinese is unable to access the information that you could.
08/10/2008 at 10:23 pm
Dear friends,
OLYMPIC HANDSHAKE
The Dalai Lama’s Olympic handshake is circling the world, headed for Beijing.
As the Beijing Olympics begin, the world looks on with mixed emotions.
It’s a moment which should bring us closer together, and Chinese citizens deserve their excitement — but the CHINESE GOVERNMENT still hasn’t opened meaningful dialogue with the DALAI LAMA, or changed its stance on BURMA, DARFUR and other pressing issues.
Even worse, extremists in China are promoting the view that Olympic activism like ours is anti-Chinese. We can’t stay silent, but we also can’t let our efforts be abused to divide people. So what can we do? The answer comes from the Dalai Lama himself, in an unambiguous gesture of Olympic spirit and friendship: a handshake.
It began in London, passed hand to hand by thousands of us — now the handshake has gone online, and is criss-crossing the globe on its way to Beijing.
All of us can join, Chinese and non-Chinese, and it comes with a promise: to hold ALL our governments accountable where they fall short, in Tibet, Iraq, Burma or beyond.
We’ll deliver our message in a bold media campaign in Hong Kong and around the world:
The worldwide outcry has produced a little progress, but much resistance from Chinese officials so far. If we are to see advances not setbacks after the Games, we need to show both that our voices will never fall silent, and that our challenge is a positive one.
We have one last chance to reclaim the spirit of the Olympics, with the message of friendship and dialogue we share with the Dalai Lama.
The more people join the global handshake, the more powerful our message will be when it hits the Chinese and international media. So let’s forward this email on, encouraging everyone to join in. “One World, One Dream” is an ideal that’s bigger than the Olympics — it’s time for citizens around the world to take it back.
With hope and respect,
Paul, Ricken, Ben, Milena, Graziela, Iain, Pascal, Veronique and the whole Avaaz team
http://www.avaaz.org/en/handshake
08/11/2008 at 1:22 am
Jason said,
To correct you one concept that “Chinese cann’t access the other western website”. Actually most of people can if he knows the way to deal with it.
There are enough proxy server which allows to bypass.
Most company server is able to access the outside internet.
So in the future, please don’t still image that Chinese is unable to access the information that you could.
@Jason,
1). Hmmm. Don’t tell me that you use a proxy server…isn’t that breaking the law? You wouldn’t break a Chinese law now would you, Jason? Shouldn’t you and the rest of the Chinese people trust the Chinese government? The government knows best, right? If the CCP doesn’t want you to see a website, then you wouldn’t actually try to disobey them, would you? Opinions that are different from what the CCP are dangerous and harmful right? I wish I was being sarcastic…I’m not…this is how many Chinese people think…and you are wrong…most Chinese people do NOT know how to bypass government filters…even if they wanted to…
2). Proxy servers often disappear in China as fast as they pop up. Here one day and gone the next. And, sadly, I’ve noticed that these proxy servers don’t always work so well. Sometimes, I just can’t get to a site (especially Wordpress blogs) no matter how hard I try. And, undoubtedly, proxy servers are often slow and do not perform well on any kind of download or video stream. And here’s what sad…half of the time, the government is blocking stuff that has nothing to do with Tibet or any other sensitive issues. Sometimes I need to find code to fix a problem on this website and all I get is a blank page. It’s frustrating…
3). Which brings us back to an important question. Proxy or no proxy…why does the government feel the need to block the thousands (if not millions of sites) that they do? If it’s so easy to bypass them as you claim, what’s the point?
08/11/2008 at 8:40 am
@Sara,
Wish you understand Chinese or ask someone to translate for you. It’s about Chinese in Sudan. You will see some different view. The report is from Deutsche Welle(Voice of Germany).
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,3550085,00.html
08/11/2008 at 10:04 pm
Jason,
I tried to look at Voice of Germany, but I can’t access the English language version.
Robert,
What’s your chinese like? Maybe you wouldn’t mind translating it for me!
Jason,
You said that the PLA liberated the Tibetans from ‘Serfdom’ but that is not true. The PLA had their own agenda for the so-called ‘liberation of Tibet’ and Serfdom was never a contributing factor.
Whether or not there was ’serfdom’ in Tibet prior to the chinese INVASION (or so-called ‘liberation’) most countries in the world have been subjected to Serfdom, at some time or other - even here in the United Kindom.
In any case, the Tibetans are not better off under chinese occupation, than there were living under ’serfdom’. That’s a fact.
Jason, ask yourself this question: If the Tibetans were being abused under ’serfdom’ then why are they desperate to regain their independence from China?
Why are the Tibetans not saying thank you to the chinese government for freeing them from serfdom?
The answer is simple Jason - from the time china invaded and occupied Tibet, the lives of the Tibetans has been terrible.
Also, why doesn’t the chinese government ASK the Tibetans what they want for their future, instead of FORCING them to do things the ‘chinese way’?
Why are they asking the chinese
08/11/2008 at 10:10 pm
Why are they asking the chinese to leave them alone? again, the answer is simple: Tibetans want to live as Tibetans, and not live as chinese.
The CCP are delaying talking to the Dalai Lama because he is 72 years old and the CCP are just waiting for him to die, and then they think there will be no more problems in Tibet - but they are wrong to think this - and naive.
08/12/2008 at 9:32 am
Sara said: “Why are they asking the chinese to leave them alone?”
Jason said: Do you know how many of those tibetan who said the above? As I know, it’s just a small portion.
Sara said: “If the Tibetans were being abused under ’serfdom’ then why are they desperate to regain their independence from China?”
“Why are the Tibetans not saying thank you to the chinese government for freeing them from serfdom?”
Jason said: Do you know some Tibetan family still hanging Mao’s Portrait? Why? Because they still regard him as great savior. No one told you about that, I’m sure. Actually there are so many Tibetans still appreciating it, just because you didn’t know about it. You have been “educated” by your media and by Dalai too deeply.
08/12/2008 at 9:50 am
@Robert,
The law just stipulated as don’t browse the “adult” website. It will be fined a lot. It doesn’t say that one can not browse other website.
The government tries itself to block the other part which they think it’s harmful. To use a proxy server, it doesn’t violate the law.
In the past, they blocked some chinese version of BBC, DW, CNN, VOA. All of the other language sites are not blocked. Now all of websites are not blocked any more. Lots of website were open except several like Falun Gong website, which I think it’s correct action. Falun Gong always lies to the world.
China is really making progress on this issue.
So please don’t think I violate law. Also I could access any website through company one.
We know there are too many rumors in the internet. Like “2 million forced evication” “3000 homeless” etc. That’s the reason why need to do that for those who has no individual thinking.
Proxy or not, China is on the process to gradually open. Step by step. I think it’s necessary to keep stable.
08/12/2008 at 9:51 am
Jason says:
Do you know how many of those tibetan who said the above? As I know, it’s just a small portion.
Robert says:
Jason, sometimes it surprises me how little you actually know about what is going on in Tibet. It is more or less like a police state in some places. How many Tibetans do you think would dare to tell the Chinese to leave them alone considering the likely consequences? The best way to survive in Tibet is to keep one’s mouth shut.
Jason said,
Do you know some Tibetan family still hanging Mao’s Portrait? Why? Because they still regard him as great savior. No one told you about that, I’m sure. Actually there are so many Tibetans still appreciating it, just because you didn’t know about it. You have been “educated” by your media and by Dalai too deeply.
Robert says:
Really? There are Tibetans hanging Mao’s portrait? And where exactly did you obtain that information? Have you seen it for yourself? Let me guess…you watched a documentary on CCTV about it? Saw it in a Chinese newspaper? Sure, there may be a few brainwashed Tibetans with portraits of Chairman Mao in their houses but such a display would more than likely make them very unpopular with their friends and neighbors. It is much more likely than Tibetans who display a portrait of Chairman Mao were forced to do so by the Chinese government…
08/12/2008 at 12:00 pm
http://bbs1.people.com.cn/postDetail.do?view=2&pageNo=1&treeView=0&id=85418218&boardId=2
Please take a look the picture. Do you think it looks like forced? Do you know that there are so many travlers who have blogs saying that, not from the government. It’s because you don’t understand Chinese, you are unable to find this kind of information. My sister has been there and she confirmed it too.
Actually most of Hans don’t hang Mao’s portrait. But tibetan still hang the portrait. No one in China was forced by government to hang Mao’s portrait.
Please learn Chinese, then you know what really Chineses are talking about.
If you hired a tibetan guide to climb everest mountain, do you think any policemen still follow you? Do you think you are not free to talk with him?
08/12/2008 at 1:27 pm
http://www.fyjs.cn/bbs/attachments/Mon_0804/136_31512_9ff2004b8c6d038.jpg
@Sara,
Is it ridiculous that Buhda and Mao’s portraits are together on the wall? Before you see this picture, you may say it’s liar at all. But it’s true in Tibet.
08/12/2008 at 6:25 pm
Jason,
I agree with Robert - if there are Tibetans who have a portrait of Mao in their home, it will be because they have been forced to, by the chinese.
There is just NO WAY that a Buddhist Tibetan would WILLINGLY hang up a portrait of Mao in their home - there’s just no way!
And Jason - you INSULT the Tibetans - they most definately do NOT see Mao as their saviour. They never have and they never will. You are 100% wrong!
How on earth could you think such a thing? To the Tibetans, the Dalai Lama is their saviour - their ONLY saviour - always has been, always will be.
And you are wrong to say that here in the West we have no individual thinking - of course we do. Unlike the chinese, we have the freedom to think for ourselves.
We don’t all believe everything the media tells us, not at all. But quite often, the media who documents what is going on in Tibet and China, for example, CAN be backed up with proof and evidence.
It is in China that individual thinking isn’t allowed - and you said it yourself Jason - some websites are blocked in China because the CCP think it is harmful.
Harmful? Why can’t the chinese citizens decide for themselves what is harmful and what is not harmful?
If a person is not allowed to think for themselves, and is not allowed to decide for themselves, how can this person grow up to be an individual?
Jason, please don’t insult the Tibetans again with your nonsense about Mao being their saviour. This is a REALLY BAD thing to say.
08/12/2008 at 10:18 pm
@Sara,
Fact is fact.
You don’t believe the fact doesn’t mean what I’m saying is not the fact. I’ve never insulted anyone but telling the truth.
I want to answer you the question about “Why are the Tibetans not saying thank you to the chinese government for freeing them from serfdom?” I told you actually many serfs said thanks to the Chairman mao and the portrait hanging there is the evidence.
We Hans are not forced by government to hang Mao’s portraits. How could government force Tibetan to hang? Use your logic thinking.
Sara, you denied the serfdom existent in the past, you denied that the tibetan hanging Mao’s portrait. You just believe what Dalai told you. What’s your independent thinking. I sent you the pictures, articles by other westerns, the sourcing not from government, you still denied. Is it really right attitude to find the truth? I doubt about it.
I’ve viewed the western media, viewed the Dalai’s website, viewed the Chinese government’s website, viewed the chinese dissedent’s articles about Tibet. I have viewed all of both Chinese and English website about tibet issue. With all of those information, most of the Chinese government’s documentary could be proved as correct by other source of information whereas most materials from Dalai could be proved as wrong. I have been to the Tibetan living area (not TAR). Do you think I’m still not the independent thinker?
Dalai and most of earlier exile tibetan belonged to the group of Aristocrats whose advantages were deprived. How could those guy saying anything good about China?But Lots of serfs were liberated, of course they thanked Mao. Until now, you didn’t and perhaps you don’t want to hear about their voice, but those voices are the real tibetans’.
Sara, to bury your head under sand is useless. It can not change the fact. No one can prevent you supporting the cause you believe is correct. But some years later, when you find someone have cheated you and your cause was wrong, I wonder what’s your feeling at that time.
Sara said: “Harmful? Why can’t the chinese citizens decide for themselves what is harmful and what is not harmful? ”
Actually for well educated person, it’s not the problem. But for blind believe person like you, there is some harmful, rumors can be spreaded very quickly. That’s why government will block those website which tells more lies.
If western media don’t create more rumors, Chinese government will free more websites. That’s the truth.
Do you believe 1million Massacre of Tibetan still existed?
Do you believe 2million forced evication still existed?
08/14/2008 at 8:53 am
How much support did the Dalai Lama’s separatists rebellion got from the people of Tibet?
The CIA’s Secret War in Tibet
By Kenneth Conboy and James Morrison (JAMES MORRISON was a thirty-year Army veteran and the training officer for the CIA)
Excerpt:
“”from 1957 to 1972, in the United States, and parachuted them( Tibetan guerrilas) back into Tibet to organize rebellions against the PLA. But with little support from fellow Tibetans they often fell to the hands of the PLA quickly. In one incident, one agent was immediately reported by his own brother and all three agents in the team were arrested. They were not mistreated. After less than a month of propaganda sessions they were escorted to the Indian border and released. The CIA’s Secret War in Tibet”
08/31/2008 at 5:06 pm
Jason,
Unfortunately, Tibetans ARE forced to hang up pictures of Mao, and other CCP members too, like Hu Jintao. Look at the other thread ‘Beijing slams Britain for meeting Dalai Lama’ - I have posted a comment there about it.
There are many such websites where this information can be found. Maybe the chinese are not forced to put up picutres of the CCP and Mao, but Tibetans are being forced to.
Also, I actually agreed with you that serfdom existed in Tibet, I said so before, but what I also said was that not only did serfdom exist in other countries too (we had serfdom here in the U.K. in the past) …..
but my point I was trying to make to you was this: The 17 point agreement does not mention anything about the PLA liberating Tibet from serfdom. Apparently, Tibet was to be liberated from ‘imperalist forces’ - even though at that time there were only 7 foreigners in Tibet, none of whom were military people trying to invade Tibet.
Yugung has stated that the agreement was signed to ‘avoid further blood-shed’ although he/she has never explained this ‘theory’.
The point is Jason, Tibetans are NOT happy with the chinese running their country. They feel persecuted, threatened and above everything else, they want the Dalai Lama to rule Tibet, not the chinese.
If you look at the other thread, I have posted a few comments about what is happening in schools in Tibet for Tibetan children, it is so sad.
Forget about serfdom Jason - that isn’t the issue. Tibetans want the chinese to leave Tibet - that’s what they are saying.
If serfdom was so terrible in Tibet, then the Tibetans would surely be thankful to the chinese for releasing them of serfdom. But this is not what they are saying.
There really has been NO liberation of Tibet. The chinese invaded and ever since the Tibetans lives have not been happy. The so-called ‘liberation’ has not worked has it?
I think if anyone should try and start thinking logically Jason, it’s you. I’m not trying to be horrible to you, it’s just that you refuse to acknowledge that Tibetans are very unhappy and they really want the chinese to leave Tibet.
08/31/2008 at 8:38 pm
Sara,
Glad to see that you have made progress on acknowledge about the existent of Serfdom. Please ask Dalai about it. Did he say that to you? So you know that Dalai could lie to the world. Is that right? If he could lie on this, why didn’t he lie on the other things? Think about it carefully. (also please look at your post before, how confident you have belived that serfdom didn’t exist in the past. Just remind you that you have other confident belief which will be proved as lie as time is going. It will not be the first case, believe me)
I think you have enough information from Dalai and your media side. I think you should learn some information from opposite side. If you are the judge, you should know information from both sides in that you could make your own judgement, is that right? I used this way to find the truth.
Chinese government have been continuing to ask Dalai to do some system reform to eliminate serfdom, but didn’t setup the deadline. This document you could find from Mao’s works or the Chinese government document.
It’s Dalai and its aristocrats who were unwilling to give up the old system which resulted in riots in 1959.
Were the tibetan serfs who were liberated not happy? Don’t cheat yourself about that. Only Dalai and the descendent of aristocrats are not happy.
Sara said: “If you look at the other thread, I have posted a few comments about what is happening in schools in Tibet for Tibetan children, it is so sad.”
You just heard about that. It’s not the truth. Someone lied to you , you just buy it. Don’t be so easily fooled by such kind of information.
08/31/2008 at 8:44 pm
Sara,
“But with little support from fellow Tibetans they often fell to the hands of the PLA quickly.”
This is from the secret war in Yugung’s 204 comments, also you could find it from Wiki which I have posted for you.
What does it mean “LITTLE SUPPORT FROM FELLOW TIBETANS”? That means most of tibetans didn’t support those for independence, they didn’t support Dalai and CIA’s action. How do you understand these words? Please read carefully and think about it in more depth.
09/01/2008 at 1:34 pm
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