The China Teaching Web

This is fascinating to me. Do the ESL teachers, then, speak to their class exclusively in English? Is there a  small lexicon of Chinese phrases you would use in directing the class; you know, like “Go to page 14 in your book” or “please open a window”? Finally, what are the age ranges being taught?

Dear Mr Vance

I will never hire non-native speakers to work as full time English teachers. Here’s why:

1.      They make mistakes in the classroom – and the students often have to correct them

2.      They often have strong accents – which means the students have great difficulty in understand instructions

3.      They are not able to explain grammatical rules as well as a well educated native

4.      they give the school a bad image among customers

5.      It is impossible for non-natives to acquire a foreign experts certificate which is a requirement for a legal work visa

6.      Local Chinese teachers are just as good (if not better) and are cheaper

You mention skin colour, not I.

I have no problem whatsoever with hiring black, white, Asian or whatever colour teachers, as long as they are native speakers.

From experience I can tell you that there is a higher percentage of non-native speaking teachers that make grammatical and phonological errors than there are native-teachers who have no higher-education, working as teachers in China. Given the lesser of two evils, I know whom i would choose….

Check you definition of racism please or at least learn to think critically.. 

I don't think Peter is a racist. There are just some facts that are “sad but true”. Maybe Wild is the exception that proves the rule. I know lots of non-native English speakers who may speak better English than I do, but they still don't have the little things that make a person a total English speaker. There is a very knowledgable Asian lady I know who says people are “fuzzy” rather than “fussy”, and calls street performers “panhandlers”, for example.

Do I really need to qualify everything with “generally” or “in my experience”? Of course not. Anyone with a brain can see that I’m talking generally. Of course there are exceptions that prove the rule. That’s why we call them “exceptions”.

So you are saying there are “many” schools in China that hire on looks. What do you mean by “looks”? This fuzzy logic is getting you nowhere. If by “looks “you mean people who are ugly get turned down for jobs, this is absolute rubbish because plenty of teachers who work in China are either old, fat or ugly. Sorry to put it bluntly but it has never stopped them finding work. I wonder why that is? Could it be something to do with their language ability or experience?… Heaven forbid.

If by “looks” you mean skin colour, again I have disagree with you. Any African Americans or Asian Americans who complain about not being able to find work need to search a bit more deeply into why they aren’t being hired. Playing the race card is a very convenient excuse for covering up your shortcomings as a teacher. Actually I know many teachers in China who are Asian / African Americans – they’ve never had a problem because their attitude, ability, personality, intelligence fits the bill. That is what employers really look for.

If you only knew… I'm not going to divulge any information here for obvious reasons of anonymity. But if you want to make this a competition, which it seems like you do, I will add that I have a lot more China experience (and most probably, teaching experience)than yourself, having lived and worked here in the mainland for six years.

Daniel,

Thanks for your post. Very informative and interesting. Especially #5 where you seem to be indicating that as a non native speaker of English you CAN obtain a work visa and residence permit.

I also agree with you about the general education of most native teachers in China. Even as a native speaker, I have found that I have more opportunities because I also hold a degree and a TESOL certificate. Many, as you suggest, have only graduated from high school…

Anyway, congratulations on finding a job in China and on having so much success. Hopefully, other non native speakers of English can have the same good experience as you have…

1. I don't know what kind of teachers you've hired in the past or where they're from, but I have NEVER been corrected by a student. Neither here in China nor where I come from.

Well, you have only been here four months. I have been occasionally corrected for misspellings – which I like because it means the students are following you. In China, a student will have to be feeling pretty cocky and sure to correct a teacher.

However, very often when non-natives get in the classroom they are unaware that they are making slips. Non-natives tend to use false friends and are not fully aware of a lot of idiomatic expressions and more unusual phrasal verbs. Students don’t correct the teacher when this happens because a) they don’t want to challenge / embarrass the teacher and b) they are not totally sure it is a mistake.

I will guarantee you, however, that students speak about these things amongst themselves after class and their opinion of that teacher suffers as a result. Sometimes it’s only the advanced level students who can spot such errors - perhaps you don’t teach many advanced students…

1. Being South American, I have received more input from teachers from the US and also from cultural elements (TV, movies, and so on). Hence, my accent  sounds”American-like”, but it cannot be said that a widespread language like English “belongs” to certain nationalities or can only be spoken exclusively with a certain accent. I am actually quoting my American teachers and professors here. However, I totally understand and grant you that English teaching is BUSINESS and schools and institutions in China go for that aspect, among others like looks (blond hair, white skin, light eyes).

I will grant you that there is no correct accent but there certainly are incomprehensible accents and in the classroom that causes problems.

This has nothing to do with “blond hair, white skin and blue eyes”. It sounds like you are playing the race card to cover your own inadequacies.

1. Many of the native teachers with TESOL generally don't have any education background (degrees) or teaching experience, let alone linguistics knowledge. I have both. And I know some grammar, of course. By the way, there seems to be a gerund mistake in your argument #2.

Good for you. You sound like an exception because most non-natives I meet do make errors.

Native speakers, of course, make mistakes for speaking or typing too quickly (who doesn’t?) but there is a big difference between a mistake and an error.

1. I can proudly say that I am an asset for my company, just because of the fact that I am a FOREIGNER -I am quoting them-.

Which is congruent with your assertion that in China, all one needs to be is foreign-looking in order to land a job. That doesn’t say much about your teaching does it?

1. I can send you a copy of mine anytime along with the copy of my residence permit, whereas many native teachers struggle to get their business visas renewed.

Not just natives….

1. Hell, no! They are cheaper, I grant you, but not better. Sorry. They'll never be. Period.

Why do you think this? Is there some genetic or cultural reason for why Chinese people will “never” be able to teach as well as another non-native? Perhaps you are the real racist here….

Hello, Peter!

I don't want to turn this into a fight nor take this personally. I respect you for all the insight you have about the business and for everything you know as a teacher and recruiter.

This is just a place to exchange impressions and experiences. Maybe I cannot say much about the business because I have been her for, what, five months? I am just trying to express my opinions and feelings. That's it. Of course, my insights might be superficial to you. But c'mon, you know better! You have been around longer! Lighten up!

I am not playing the race card here to cover any inadequacy. I feel very good in my own skin (if you wonder, I am Latino, but I have light skin). I said that, in China, I have seen that some institutions tend to prefer specific looks (white skin, blond hair, blue eyes) when they want to hire teachers and I want to give an example.

In my company, they're looking for a new teacher. I have to be completely honest about this. They claim they want “foreign-looking” people. There is an Asian-looking applicant (which I think is the best option because he is a native speaker from New Zealand, has educational background and experience) and they are skeptical about hiring him, just because he looks “Chinese”.  I even mentioned the possibility of bringing people from Jamaica, since I have friends there, but here they don't want to hire Black teachers.

I am not here to decide who's right between you and me, but this seems to be the way Chinese schools and recruiters think.

I agree with you on the accent aspect. It's not that English speakers must sound like an American or a British, but what they say has to be understandable.  I have interviewed on the phone three applicants from Brazil and Poland and I find that two of them have very strong accents. I'm very conscious about phonology and students need to be exposed to accent-free English as much as possible.

Lastly, I have to apologize for my last comment. If some Chinese teachers are reading this thread, I apologize.

What I didn't like about the whole thing is that you really come off as someone who looks down on us non-native speakers and isn't willing to give us a chance. I don't know what experiences you have had in the past with non-native teachers, but there are people out there who have studied and worked their necks off and are trying to build a career out of teaching English because we love the language and we love teaching. At least, I do.

This is all I have to say and I really hope we can exchange ideas more often in the near future.

Peter Easton:

I agree that there is a point in not hiring non-native speakers.

I do however think that there should be exceptions, especially if there is a native-speaker involved in the hiring process.

How important do you think it is with native-speaking English teachers? There are many different things that will decide if a teacher will succeed. English level is one of them. I would say that being a native-speaker is a plus. t It can also be a minus as native speakers are generally unaware of the rules of their language. Native-speakers don't learn English like non-native.

I know plenty of non-native English speakers who understand and can produce far more advanced English than most native speakers. For example, most of my friends (who are non-natives) have produced atleast one (or more) essays for their universities, in English. It often happends that we study in English in our home countries because materials are not translated to our native languages. We have to study in English.That's also the reason why we sometimes write in English because you tend to “get stuck” in the language you use to study. The English level of the things written at those universities exceed the national standard  of any English speaking country.

My point here is that it's hard to generalize all non-natives. Pick a non-native speaker with a university degree from a small country (small language) in Europe and you will have an excellent English speaker. The person might a slight (read: Slight) accent, but will still have very good English.